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01-24-2013, 12:01 PM | #11 |
GURPS Line Editor
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Montréal, Québec
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Re: Precise difference between Social Stigmas: Subjugated vs. Valuable Property?
The description of the effect was "Valuable Property [-10] means you're a non-person owned by a legal person, and thus covered by property laws (though perhaps ones specially worded for living chattels) rather than by laws pertaining to human rights." That's pretty clear. The addendum was just to help visualize the situation . . . and note that "Enemy (Entire culture; Watcher; 12 or less) [-10]: in all but the most private of circumstances (equivalent to 12 or less), everything you do is dogged by people who question and keep tabs on what you're doing" has all the clarification it needs in the form of "Enemy." High-ranking officials might have people keeping track of them, but those people don't count as "Enemy."
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Sean "Dr. Kromm" Punch <kromm@sjgames.com> GURPS Line Editor, Steve Jackson Games My DreamWidth [Just GURPS News] |
01-24-2013, 12:01 PM | #12 |
Join Date: Dec 2007
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Re: Precise difference between Social Stigmas: Subjugated vs. Valuable Property?
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01-24-2013, 12:07 PM | #13 | |
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Portland, Oregon
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Re: Precise difference between Social Stigmas: Subjugated vs. Valuable Property?
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What about ritual subordination? Valueable Property should be bound to do this regularly even when they weren't working at the task that made them Valueable.
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"The navy could probably win a war without coffee but would prefer not to try"-Samuel Eliot Morrison |
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01-24-2013, 12:16 PM | #14 |
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Portland, Oregon
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Re: Precise difference between Social Stigmas: Subjugated vs. Valuable Property?
Also it should be clear that Valueable Property must have an applicable effect. In a game set in an Ancient Near Eastern style setting with everyone being the property of a God-Emperor, that would be meaningless. Except for the fact that an imperial concubine is more property then a general.
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"The navy could probably win a war without coffee but would prefer not to try"-Samuel Eliot Morrison |
01-24-2013, 12:19 PM | #15 |
Join Date: Dec 2007
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Re: Precise difference between Social Stigmas: Subjugated vs. Valuable Property?
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01-26-2013, 09:05 AM | #16 | |
Join Date: May 2008
Location: CA
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Re: Precise difference between Social Stigmas: Subjugated vs. Valuable Property?
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It seems to me that the only thing that'd count would be if the entire 'race' is considered 'owned' by the entire culture, and thus no one person has any extra rights over any of the slaves than any other person. I'm not even sure if German Jews during WWII would count. This also makes it so the infomorph templates in THS are clearly wrong, since no AI would ever be considered Subjugated - you can't just take, damage, or destroy someone else's NAI no matter how much you want to. |
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01-26-2013, 09:34 AM | #17 | |
GURPS FAQ Keeper
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Kyïv, Ukraine
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Re: Precise difference between Social Stigmas: Subjugated vs. Valuable Property?
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She had less-than-slave status in the bar owned by the people covering her, regularly abused with nobody giving a damn (in fact, people came in to watch the abuse, with the whole point being what she is). If the government found out about her, they would simply throw her into the organic material reuse facility, without so much as bothering to kill first. |
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01-26-2013, 11:13 AM | #18 | |
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Albuquerque
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Re: Precise difference between Social Stigmas: Subjugated vs. Valuable Property?
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01-26-2013, 12:06 PM | #19 |
Join Date: Dec 2007
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Re: Precise difference between Social Stigmas: Subjugated vs. Valuable Property?
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01-26-2013, 12:47 PM | #20 |
Join Date: May 2008
Location: CA
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Re: Precise difference between Social Stigmas: Subjugated vs. Valuable Property?
Even then, they wouldn't count most of the time. It was apparently only during certain times when Spartan citizens could murder Helots without cause or anything, though I will admit to not really knowing much about them, so I could be mistaken.
It still leaves the fact that all of the examples of Social Stigma (Subjugated) as used in Ultra-Tech, Changing Times, the Bio-Tech Pyramid book, and a few other GURPS books are incorrect. All of them treat highly expensive robots as 'subjugated' if they aren't 'smart' enough - IE if the society considers them just objects. That doesn't fit at all with the description of Subjugated here - even a rock wouldn't be considered 'Subjugated' in modern society, since it'd be illegal to, say, go and spray paint a bunch of graffiti on a rock in front of someone's house. |
Tags |
kromm explanation, minor, social stigma, subjugated, valuable property |
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