[Adventure Guns] The gun cabinet of a Victorian explorer, hunter, Col. (Ret.)

[Verjigorm]

Originally Posted by Icelander

He does not intend it for social shooting in England, however, but rather as a versatile gun to carry on expeditions to hunt various game and fowl to supplement trail rations and as an interesting proof of concept for a new shotgun action. Loaded with 'lion shot' (large buckshot)*, it may even prove useful for hunting dangerous, if not large, animals in jungles or high grass or for self-defence against intelligent foes.

*The Colonel prefers 9 pellets of 10mm diameter each for his bush gun. I am not certain whether he could fit a whole nine pellets in a shorter shell, but I suspect he might, as long as the pressure is lower, due to less space for black powder.

Also, it's a shotgun. You can really shoot just about anything out of one, especially a pump action(I'm not familiar with the 87's lever action, so, I won't pretend to say I know how similar it is to pumps), since it's human strength that operates the action. So you can put a spear in the barrel and a blank in the breech, and pow! Spear gun. There's almost no end to the amount of hijunks a shotgun allows for.

Heck, for hunting, a shotgun round can be scored along the wade so that the casing will separate on firing, sending the wad and part of the case down range as one piece, only to hit and burst open on impact. It'll take down a man at 100yds if you hit. I hear that it's dangerous on account of "canister" getting stuck in the barrel and causing a pressure overload. You can also cut the top off the shell, remove your birdshot, melt some wax of some sort, mix your shot with wax and put it back in the shotcup. Supposedly it'll hold together a bit while flying and whack something, much like a slug. Also, it's a bit safer.

Crude, right? But when you have a werewolf coming to kill you, and silver is the only thing that works, taking some fine silver jewelry chain, cramming it in a shotshell and coating it with wax is a thing you can do, while trying to cast actual bullets for a gun is a bit more complicated.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

Also, it's a shotgun. You can really shoot just about anything out of one, especially a pump action(I'm not familiar with the 87's lever action, so, I won't pretend to say I know how similar it is to pumps), since it's human strength that operates the action. So you can put a spear in the barrel and a blank in the breech, and pow! Spear gun. There's almost no end to the amount of hijunks a shotgun allows for.

Does it sound implausible to triple-stack 9mm buckshot in a 10G, getting nine pellets in a 2.875" long shell?

And can you get a usefully higher velocity than the standard 1200 fps by using a much bigger powder charge for the same 9 pellets in a 3.25" long shell?

I'm also wondering how you can stack pellets in an 8-gauge*. Is it reasonable to stack 0 buck in sevens, as I saw one person suggesting on hand-loading sites, allowing 25-26 pellets (the middle stacks up faster than the ends) if you use four layers?

What about 10mm pellets? Could you get them to stack in threes? How about 12mm pellets? Do they stack at all? Maybe in twos?

The 8-gauge is .835-inch / 21.21mm, as opposed to the .729-inch / 18.43mm of the 12-gauge.

Discounting the thickness of the brass, the relationship of the 10mm to the diameter of the 8-gauge is very similar to the relationship of the 000 buck to a 12-gauge.

Then I was wondering, how many huge 15mm diameter balls could you stack in a 21.2x101.6mm shell, while still having enough space for black powder to propel them at reasonable velocities?

*The Colonel's first elephant gun was a smoothbore, as were many early elephant guns. He uses a 1500 grain conical bullet on elephants, but likes to carry shot for lions and tigers and bears, oh, my.

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

Heck, for hunting, a shotgun round can be scored along the wade so that the casing will separate on firing, sending the wad and part of the case down range as one piece, only to hit and burst open on impact. It'll take down a man at 100yds if you hit. I hear that it's dangerous on account of "canister" getting stuck in the barrel and causing a pressure overload. You can also cut the top off the shell, remove your birdshot, melt some wax of some sort, mix your shot with wax and put it back in the shotcup. Supposedly it'll hold together a bit while flying and whack something, much like a slug. Also, it's a bit safer.

Crude, right? But when you have a werewolf coming to kill you, and silver is the only thing that works, taking some fine silver jewelry chain, cramming it in a shotshell and coating it with wax is a thing you can do, while trying to cast actual bullets for a gun is a bit more complicated.

There's also 'A Load of Dimes' HT:AG p. 24, if you find yourself needing silver ammo for your shotgun in a blistering hurry and would rather have inferior silver loads than perfect hunting loads that don't hurt the monsters.

[Verjigorm]

Whats with those shell lengths? I was under the impression that 2.75" was the standard in shell length. When ee switched to smokeless, the wad had to be extemded considerably to account for the greatly reduced powder load. I think you can Easily blow a shotgun up by loading too hot.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

Whats with those shell lengths? I was under the impression that 2.75" was the standard in shell length. When ee switched to smokeless, the wad had to be extemded considerably to account for the greatly reduced powder load. I think you can Easily blow a shotgun up by loading too hot.

In the blackpowder era, 12-gauge shotguns were usually 2", 2.5", 2.625" to 2.75". There were 12-bore rifles that had larger receivers, though, as well as 12-bore smoothbores that were in all other ways identical to these heavy hunting rifles.

Ten gauge shotguns were mostly 2.875", but 3" gauges were not all that uncommon. A rare few 3.25" existed, many of them smoothbore hunting weapons for big game, as above, capable of chambering ball, conical bullets or shot loads.

8-gauge tended to be 3.25", but 3.75" was not unknown. 4" 8-gauges are historically known, but extremely rare. As above, those would be hunting weapons usually used on elephant at ranges short enough for rifling not to matter.

Col. Wilkinson's 8-bore is not technically a shotgun in role, nor is it meant to be used on fowl. It is an elephant gun with smoothbore barrels that can also chamber shot loads. His 10-gauge is also a backup gun for rhino, buffalo and suchlike, with 20" smoothbore barrels and usually firing a conical bullet with a truly monstrous powder charge.

[Verjigorm]

Originally Posted by Icelander

In the blackpowder era, 12-gauge shotguns were usually 2", 2.5", 2.625" to 2.75". There were 12-bore rifles that had larger receivers, though, as well as 12-bore smoothbores that were in all other ways identical to these heavy hunting rifles.

Ten gauge shotguns were mostly 2.875", but 3" gauges were not all that uncommon. A rare few 3.25" existed, many of them smoothbore hunting weapons for big game, as above, capable of chambering ball, conical bullets or shot loads.

8-gauge tended to be 3.25", but 3.75" was not unknown. 4" 8-gauges are historically known, but extremely rare. As above, those would be hunting weapons usually used on elephant at ranges short enough for rifling not to matter.

Col. Wilkinson's 8-bore is not technically a shotgun in role, nor is it meant to be used on fowl. It is an elephant gun with smoothbore barrels that can also chamber shot loads. His 10-gauge is also a backup gun for rhino, buffalo and suchlike, with 20" smoothbore barrels and usually firing a conical bullet with a truly monstrous powder charge.

Hmm, what's the source on that? I'm not disbelieving you at all, as I've found you to have some pretty good information on most subjects you raise here, I'd just like to know where I can get some of that shotgun dope for a project I'm working on.

I'm not sure how break action shotguns compared to break action or bolt action shotguns handle high pressures: I'd be tempted to assume that break action shotguns are built hardy enough to handle high pressures(Like I said, I think shotguns top out around 14k PSI, while "modest" handgun loads are often 30K and up, and rifles are even higher. this is for modern smokeless though)), but if they were purposefully designed for low pressure, they might not have the actual strength to withstand too much hot loaded ammo. So, I would need a DouglasCole or HANS to tell me what the truth of the matter is for older shotguns.

My gut feeling is that for any purpose built shotgun(aka, meant to fire a shotload primarily, with slug/ball as a secondary function), tinkering with the powder load isn't going to get you as much performance gains as you can squeeze from an actual rifle: you're already really close to the max pressure, so there's just not much wiggle room. I don't think I would allow +p rounds in a shotgun, well, atleast I probably wouldn't allow them to give +1 to damage when firing shot. I could see the case for lengthening the 1/2d by some amount to account for the faster velocity, but I don't think you can actually eke enough extra oomph out of a shotgun. My copy of High-Tech is in a storage unit right now, so I can't remember if shotguns can be +p anyway.

Now, for the 8-bores and bigger, that are actually designed as RIFLES, I think those are probably something you can tinker with a bit more to eke out damage. I don't know about those 10mm balls though. Those things are fairly massive. I mean, a 12ga is 18.5mm or so, right? And that stacks 9 8mm in 2.75". So going up to 21ishmm for a 10 guage and getting 9 9mm seems a bit dubious to me.

I really, really, really need to start handloading, so I can get you some better data.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

Hmm, what's the source on that? I'm not disbelieving you at all, as I've found you to have some pretty good information on most subjects you raise here, I'd just like to know where I can get some of that shotgun dope for a project I'm working on.

I just checked auction listings for a lot of old double guns, as well as posts by people shooting old guns and building replicas. Those were the chamberings that I found.

Note that many of them are also listed in GURPS High-Tech: Adventure Guns* and that HANS can probably be approached about a Bibliography.

Vintage Guns is awesome in general.

*The standard chambering in that book for 12-gauge is 2.625" in length, whereas the most common for 10-gauge is 2.875". 10-gauge 3" is also listed, along with 8-gauge 3.25" and 3.75".

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

I'm not sure how break action shotguns compared to break action or bolt action shotguns handle high pressures: I'd be tempted to assume that break action shotguns are built hardy enough to handle high pressures(Like I said, I think shotguns top out around 14k PSI, while "modest" handgun loads are often 30K and up, and rifles are even higher. this is for modern smokeless though)), but if they were purposefully designed for low pressure, they might not have the actual strength to withstand too much hot loaded ammo. So, I would need a DouglasCole or HANS to tell me what the truth of the matter is for older shotguns.

The pressure of an 'African load' in 10-bore or 8-bore is more than enough to propel a heavy shotload at very good velocities. What I don't know is whether a 9-12mm lead pellet can usefully be propelled at 1400-1500 fps or if the sonic barrier causes so much energy loss that it's not worth it.

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

My gut feeling is that for any purpose built shotgun(aka, meant to fire a shotload primarily, with slug/ball as a secondary function), tinkering with the powder load isn't going to get you as much performance gains as you can squeeze from an actual rifle: you're already really close to the max pressure, so there's just not much wiggle room. I don't think I would allow +p rounds in a shotgun, well, atleast I probably wouldn't allow them to give +1 to damage when firing shot. I could see the case for lengthening the 1/2d by some amount to account for the faster velocity, but I don't think you can actually eke enough extra oomph out of a shotgun. My copy of High-Tech is in a storage unit right now, so I can't remember if shotguns can be +p anyway.

There have always existed heavy loads for shotguns that would use the +P rules for ST, but have a heavier lead charge instead of the same amount going faster.

I know that you run into diminishing returns trying to boost shot pellet velocities much over 1200 fps, but I was wondering if you could get up to 1400-1500 fps when using a 10-bore 3.25" shell or an 8-bore 4" shell. It would make the Colonel very happy if he could propel his lion and tiger shot at enough velocities to get 2d-2d+2-ish damage and it would be super cool if he could get 12mm-15mm shot with enough power and penetration to use on big crittes like Cape buffalo.

If he can't, though, he'd have to use ball or conical bullets for anything bigger than a tiger. But that's no fun.

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

Now, for the 8-bores and bigger, that are actually designed as RIFLES, I think those are probably something you can tinker with a bit more to eke out damage.

Remember that 2-bore, 4-bore, 6-bore, 8-bore, 10-bore, 12-bore, 16-bore, 20-bore and 24-bore all existed in rifled and smoothbore versions. Some smoothbore chamberings in those sizes were fairly low-powered and meant for shot to use on fowl and small game. Others were short-barrelled hunting guns for bigger game, used at such short range that rifled barrels were unncesssary.

The Colonel has 10-gauges in 2.875", for example the Winchester M1887, that are designed as shotguns. His 10-bore bush gun and 8-bore elephant gun, however, are smoothbore hunting weapons at rifle-pressures.

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

I don't know about those 10mm balls though. Those things are fairly massive. I mean, a 12ga is 18.5mm or so, right? And that stacks 9 8mm in 2.75". So going up to 21ishmm for a 10 guage and getting 9 9mm seems a bit dubious to me.

9mm is 000 Buck. You can easily get 9 of those in a modern 12-gauge (more in heavy loads). I think that period loads using bigger buckshot than 00 were 8 9mm 000 Buck in a 12-gauge 2.625" shell.

The standard load in 12-gauge is 9 8.38mm 00 Buck and you could get that in a 2.625" shell. A 12-gauge 2.5" shell couldn't fit more than 8 such pellets.

The 10mm pellets would only stack double in a 10-gauge and so are not worth loading in it for the modest improvement in damage and range that they'd yield. Better to use 9mm to get reliable triple-stacking.

10mm, 12mm and even 15mm are proposed loads for the smoothbore 8-bore elephant gun, as it is not longer the Colonel's primary heavy ball piece and he can now use it as an ultra-high power shotgun for lions and tigers and such.

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

I really, really, really need to start handloading, so I can get you some better data.

Yes, that would be good. Get on it, stat. :)

[SionEwig]

Originally Posted by Icelander

As you can see, Col. Wilkinson elected a Model 1886 for his newest Winchester rifle, one acquired after the modest success of his adventure books and thus an expensive gun.

I don't think that the Model 1886 existed in 'One of One Thousand' grade, but I expect you could ask for a Deluxe model with a stock that fits you just so, a carefully fitted action and specially chosen barrel for accuracy. I have, in any case, charged him about thirty guineas for it or just over $150 in the period.

You are correct, the Model 1886 was not available in the 1 of 1000 grade, only the 73s and 76s. The 1 of 1000s were started in 1875, and there are believed to have been only 136 Model 1873s and 54 Model 1876s so designated. If I had to guess, I'd say that the scarcity is part of why they are listed so high in GURPS.

The price of 30 guineas will certainly get the Colonel a very well made 86. I'd even propose that it has some nice engraving and inlay work done on it.

In any case, the Winchester .45-75 WCF that the Colonel used in the Afghan War is probably his favourite combat arm. It may not look fancy and it's far below the power of his double Express rifle in .500 Express, his Gibbs Long Range Rifle in .450 Gibbs-Wilkinson or the Bullard Repeating Rifle in .50-115, not to mention being neither as powerful nor as accurate as the Winchester M1886, but it has served him well under difficult conditions and he has lost count of the Paythans he's felled with it.


If I didn't have to work for a living, I'd probably run several more campaigns, at least two of them for players abroad.

But so far, the universe has proven resistant to the idea of providing me with a modest, but comfortable living, as a reward for my magnificent existence. So I must expend untold hours of prime gaming or game-preparation time on mundane labours, in order to afford shelter, nourishment and the occasion entertainment.

The universe needs a stern talking to.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by SionEwig

You are correct, the Model 1886 was not available in the 1 of 1000 grade, only the 73s and 76s. The 1 of 1000s were started in 1875, and there are believed to have been only 136 Model 1873s and 54 Model 1876s so designated. If I had to guess, I'd say that the scarcity is part of why they are listed so high in GURPS.

The price of 30 guineas will certainly get the Colonel a very well made 86. I'd even propose that it has some nice engraving and inlay work done on it.

Yeah, it's pretty much a Deluxe model with heavy accurate barrel and much more carefully fitted action, custom-fitted stock, sights to the Colonel's preference and a very light trigger pull (Fine (Accurate)), as well as silver inlay and engravings of scenes from the Afghan War.

[Icelander]

In case Col. H.E. Wilkinson ever gets to make any long-range shots*, I intend to use the Bullet Travel rules on GURPS Tactical Shooting p. 32. I would like to differentiate between his various weapons by having the travel time per second be different.

I was wondering what were realistic numbers. I can't recall what modern rounds Douglas Cole used for the 250 yds/second for pistol rounds and 600 yds/second for rifle rounds, but he did not just use the velocity at muzzle, he worked out an average travel time over the typical range for the round based on the rate of velocity loss.

If we assume that 250 yds/second is intended to be a representative average travel time over 3+ seconds for something close to a 9mm and that 600 yds/second is either a .308 or a .223, what would be fair numbers to use for the .45-70 Government? Or the .44-40?

Would the .450 Martini Henry be the same as the .45-70 Government?

What about the .50-90 Sharps?

How about a huge conical bullet in 4- to 8-bore, starting out at 1200-1500 fps?

*For example, he successfully navigates the tangle of streets through Goodman's Fields in order to reach his rented flat and claim his arsenal, the PCs manage to carry off their raid before midnight and rescue the potential human sacrifices, during the night the army of criminals is prevented from taking the Tower of London, the PCs further manage to survive until dawn and the new day is not too foggy; and in that new day, Col. Wilkinson decides to help out the defenders of the Tower by sniping at the besieging army of criminals.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Iduring the night the army of criminals is prevented from taking the Tower of London

The Tower is, unsurprisingly, a remarkably strong defensive position. I've held it against considerably superior forces in a different game.

If there are ten men inside with Martini-Henrys who know what they're about, and the attackers lack artillery, explosives or the power of flight, I'd expect it to survive the night. However, the PCs will have to break the siege to get inside.