GURPS Dune

[Thamior]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

There are some issues with the Dune setting for gaming, primarily that everyone has access to WBDs (not just noble houses, everyone). Forget the ancient atomics, anyone with a laser pistol and a belt force screen possesses a WMD. A janitor could steal the required components in a couple of hours.

Let us examine how a PC would exploit the laser-force field issue. They would a) attach a mechanical timer to a laser pistol, b) attach a mechanical timer to a force screen, c) put the items in a box, d) set the timers for the required time, e) place the box near the target, and f) run away. Even if the explosion is just 0.01 kilotons, it is just too cheap and easy for most PCs to avoid using and, realisticly, every revolutionary should feel the same way. There should be no Empire, no Great Houses, no Noble Houses, because they should all be radioactive dust.

One change that would be required to make the setting useful for gaming would be to make that phenomena different. Perhaps lasers reflect off force screens, making them as useless on the battlefield as atomics because their effects are too random and too indiscriminate? With beam weapons reflecting randomly and kinetic energy weapons being stopped by force shields, battles would be fought by primitive weapons.

I think the knowledge to make a laser is controlled in Dune universe. I would make an unusual background for such crafting skill which I would strongly disallow for PCs.

[beetle496]

Originally Posted by Thamior

I think the knowledge to make a laser is controlled in Dune universe. I would make an unusual background for such crafting skill which I would strongly disallow for PCs.

There was plenty of technology though, just not integrated circuits beyond some level. Never allowing the the players to be scientists seems pretty harsh! And I think integrating maybe event GURPS Steam Punk could work?

Originally Posted by AllenOwen

A rogue nation state would find itself cut off from guild services. No guild services, no commerce. No commerce, impoverishment.

Our planet seems to do okay with money/technology without Interstellar commerce! I feel like there could be a balkanized world that was either contested or not entirely under the thumb of a major House. If so, that’s an opportunity for space pirates.

Also, the emperor would get involved, along with other houses to put that "rogue nation state" down. No one wants anyone ****ing with the guild.

The Great Houses most certainly controlled their air space; If they can't, they are not a Great House anymore, and the empire will step in and take over.

Agreed, if not the nominal owning House, then the Emperor would squash the space pirates. But if the main goal of the rogue nation state was just to launch themselves out of their home system (and never come back), it seems to me like there would be an opportunity to kidnap a guildsman and its associated fleet.

Remember, this isn't star wars. The only way you can travel from star to star is via a Space Guild ship. No one else has the capability; including "space pirates". If a great house had a space pirate problem, it would be on them to put them down immediately; the spacing guild would simply stop services until they did. I guarantee the "space pirates" would not last long.

Agreed on all points. With the scenario I am envisioning, the rogue nation state does not become space pirates until after they have a Guild ship (and support crew/vessels).

Again, no one messes with the Spacing Guild.

I don’t remember, does the Guild have some kind of hive mind? Would it be trivial to track down a guild navigator who was trying to freelance?

I don't think a guild navigator would go rogue; they are extremely addicted to spice, and they will need a reliable source just to keep from dying.

Keeping a drug addict happy is not that hard. I never felt like I understood what motivate individual navigators. Did they aspire to bigger fleets? What do did they do in their free time?

No one else has foldspace capable ships, and those are the hieghliners. Too big to steal with their crew in the thousands. So even if a navigator became disgruntled, he/she/it would simply have to be disgruntled.

Yes, this opportunity I wonder about the most. How small could an interstellar ship be? Does a disgruntled navigator really have no options but to suck it up?

No one else even knows how to build their own foldpsace ships, and if they tried, it would be hard if not impossible to keep secret, and again, no one ****s with the guild and survives.

My impression is that building a foldspace ship would not be impossible for one of the great houses. Finding a pilot was the bottleneck!

This is a feudal society; if a minor house on a planet went rogue, it would be up to the great house (the minor house's liege lord) that controls the planet to bring that minor house to heel. Otherwise, the empire and guild will assume this minor house is acting up with the great house's consent; with the appropriate consequences.

I agree with this analysis. But I am supposing a minor house whose goal is to abandon their home planet (and star system). Because the Guild doesn’t have much of its own armies, I think they would be vulnerable.

Originally Posted by shawnhcorey

The guild itself maintains weather/spy satellites around planets. That's what the Fremen (via the smugglers) were doing: bribing the guild not to put satellites around Dune.

Okay, so if this happened on one planet, it could happen on another.

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

There are some issues with the Dune setting for gaming, primarily that everyone has access to WMDs (not just noble houses, everyone). Forget the ancient atomics, anyone with a laser pistol and a belt force screen possesses a WMD. A janitor could steal the required components in a couple of hours.

I agree that this is an issue. It is one of the few implications that it seems to me that Frank Herbert didn’t think through enough. I think I might be tempted to have the dramatic lasgun / shield interaction be mostly myths and superstition. (And always bad for the lasgun, but not nuclear.) I think where it actually happened in the books, one could craft alternate explanations for the destruction. It is good for nobles to have commoners terrified of the technology, and the scientist know enough not to talk about the bad effects not being world changing.

[cptbutton]

Originally Posted by shawnhcorey

The guild itself maintains weather/spy satellites around planets. That's what the Fremen (via the smugglers) were doing: bribing the guild not to put satellites around Dune.

Just to nitpick, as I recall it, the Guild didn't put up the satellites, but you had to have their permission to do it. Which they withheld because of the bribes.

[shawnhcorey]

Originally Posted by cptbutton

Just to nitpick, as I recall it, the Guild didn't put up the satellites, but you had to have their permission to do it. Which they withheld because of the bribes.

I can't remember all the details but it was the bribe of spice that stop the satellites. No other planet had spice, so they all had satellites.

[AllenOwen]

Originally Posted by beetle496

T

Our planet seems to do okay with money/technology without Interstellar commerce! I feel like there could be a balkanized world that was either contested or not entirely under the thumb of a major House. If so, that’s an opportunity for space pirates.

We are not part of an interstellar society.

Imagine how bad things would get if a nation were to be basically blackballed by all the other nations on Earth. Blockaded so no ships can dock with the blackballed nations ports. Any aircraft that attempts to enter shot down by the blockading forces. Oh sure you'd have smugglers, but the cost of goods smuggled would be very high. None of the leaders of that nation want that for themselves.

[AlexanderHowl]

Interstellar trade is highly unlikely to be a major fraction of an economy unless governments enforce dependency to make rebellion less likely to succeed (The Imperium of Man from Warhammer 40K comes to mind). Interplanetary trade might be necessary for efficiency purposes (it is vastly cheaper to mine precious metals on asteroids than on the Earth if you have suitable transport infrastructure), but a TL8 society with less than 2 billion people could probably survive forever without any offworld trade. Of course, a monopoly on FTL travel would likely make interstellar trade even less important, as it would likely increase transportation costs.

Dune just isn't the type of setting that allows for anything other than planetary romance stories. Star Trek, Star Wars, Warhammer 40K, etc. are all examples of better settings for gaming, as they allow more flexibility. Of course, it helps that they each have hundreds of associated books, multiple media properties, and assorted RPG lines that fleshed out the settings. Of course, nothing is stopping a GM from fleshing out Dune to make it a better gaming setting.

For example, perhaps FTL travel is possible without Navigators, just much slower and much less safe outside of explored routes. Captains would have foldspace routes that they could navigate slowly and carefully without a Navigator, though the trip would take 10x as long, meaning that nobles would prefer using Navigators. It would allow for a lot more flexibility in the setting.

[AllenOwen]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Interstellar trade is highly unlikely to be a major fraction of an economy unless governments enforce dependency to make rebellion less likely to succeed (The Imperium of Man from Warhammer 40K comes to mind). Interplanetary trade might be necessary for efficiency purposes (it is vastly cheaper to mine precious metals on asteroids than on the Earth if you have suitable transport infrastructure), but a TL8 society with less than 2 billion people could probably survive forever without any offworld trade. Of course, a monopoly on FTL travel would likely make interstellar trade even less important, as it would likely increase transportation costs.

Dune just isn't the type of setting that allows for anything other than planetary romance stories. Star Trek, Star Wars, Warhammer 40K, etc. are all examples of better settings for gaming, as they allow more flexibility. Of course, it helps that they each have hundreds of associated books, multiple media properties, and assorted RPG lines that fleshed out the settings. Of course, nothing is stopping a GM from fleshing out Dune to make it a better gaming setting.

For example, perhaps FTL travel is possible without Navigators, just much slower and much less safe outside of explored routes. Captains would have foldspace routes that they could navigate slowly and carefully without a Navigator, though the trip would take 10x as long, meaning that nobles would prefer using Navigators. It would allow for a lot more flexibility in the setting.

Oh I get the impression the reason the Spacing Guild has so much power is commerce. Without them, no more commerce. Sure the smallfolk will survive I guess, but will House Atreides like having their exports not sold offsworld? I think not.

Unless we've moved to a more generic setting, which means the thread has veered off topic a bit.

[cptbutton]

There is a semi-official non-canon book The Dune Encyclopedia which has a lot interesting details of the setting.

[Johnny1A.2]

Originally Posted by beetle496

I don’t remember, does the Guild have some kind of hive mind? Would it be trivial to track down a guild navigator who was trying to freelance?

Other prescient entities can indirectly sense them, and vice versa. The big problem would be the necessary supply of melange. A rogue navigator/steersman would need a reliable source of substantial amounts of melange, and a tank-machine to hold him, and support personnel to maintain it all.

Keeping a drug addict happy is not that hard. I never felt like I understood what motivate individual navigators. Did they aspire to bigger fleets? What do did they do in their free time?

We're never told. But remember that they require a supply of melange. Melange is uber-addictive, once you're hooked, withdrawal is lethal. So the Guild has that hold on them, if nothing else. Probably there are other rewards, too.

My impression is that building a foldspace ship would not be impossible for one of the great houses. Finding a pilot was the bottleneck!

Yes! This is where you just have to disregard the garbage Herbert's son and his accomplices wrote, it's not compatible with the real story. In the original work, the knowledge of how to make FTL ships was never lost, everybody had it, but because of the Butlerian restrictions on computer tech, nobody could astrogate them successfully except the Guild (and much, much later, the Ixians found a way to automate the prescience process).

It's navigation that's the issue.

[Johnny1A.2]

Originally Posted by beetle496

Of course, but that doesn’t solve the problem. What you really want is an excuse for one player to be Bene Gesserit, one Sardaukar, one Mentat, etc. I couldn’t figure out a start that felt plausible.


With Star Wars, marginal individuals can still zip around the universe. The player characters meet at a bar and off they go! Important to the campaign premise (or not) isn’t really a factor to having great and varied adventures.

With Dune, the Spacing Guild has a lock on FTL travel, so the players are stuck on one planet without a patron / strong plot hook. If they players are mobile (i.e., important to the plot) they will be from one house, and pretty homogenous. If the players are on the fringe, they can be more varied, but it is going to be harder to get them exposed to all the lovely weirdness, especially after the initial setting.

On the contrary, there is a vast amount of interstellar travel and trade going on. When House Atreides was moving their seat to Arrakis, it was mentioned that all their ships and stuff would fill only a small part of the Guild ship's capacity.

There are lots of ways different kinds of groups can come together. Remember, we see only the tip of the societal iceberg in the stories, the nobles and senior members of their groups. But the groups are huge, galaxy-spanning organizations with things going on all over the place.

There are hundreds of Great Houses, and at least thousands of Houses Minor. There noble families employ millions of people in various business and military activities. There are other businesses that interlock with those. The BG has agents on most worlds, Mentats work everywhere. There are probably billions of BG all told, likewise the other big outfits. There are also lots and lots of plain old rich commoners.

The are CHOAM business agents, accountants, explorers, lawyers, secret agents, assassins, it's got everything going on that any SFnal megacorp can have going on, except for AI and some forms of cyborgization. Most of what can happen in any other galaxy-spanning SF setting can happen in the Dune galaxy.

The galaxy at the time of Dune is not low-tech! That's a common misconception. Certain specific areas of technology are forbidden, esp. computers and human alteration, and they don't advance much because of various restrictions, but the average tech level is higher than that of modern-day Earth, all over the galaxy. There are heavily industrialized worlds, there's a sophisticated STL space infrastructure, in some ways their miniaturization is ahead of ours.

It's not a medieval-tech agrarian galaxy. That comes much later, in the later centuries of Leto II's reign.