GURPS Dune

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by beetle496

With Dune, the Spacing Guild has a lock on FTL travel, so the players are stuck on one planet without a patron / strong plot hook.

How so? That's like saying "In New York, the government has a lock on subway travel, so you're stuck in one apartment building". The Guild is a monopoly, but that doesn't say anything about how picky they are about customers, or imply any attempt to restrict travel, or even the expense to individuals.

(The more travel, the more they make, after all. And the existence of the Heighliners that carry all House Atreides' frigates and transports tucked into a little corner implies that there's a very great volume of traffic, justifying the existence of those giant ships. The Guild monopoly is turned into political power, so they might simply extort a subsidy from the Imperium -- govenrments have to maintain the transport infrastructure, right? -- or CHOAM, rather than rely on extortionate individual ticket prices.)

Unless the PC group includes a rogue Guild Steersman, they don't get to fly off in their own ship on a whim. They're dependent on scheduled commercial service. But then, that problem never stopped James Bond from visiting exotic locations at need. The PCs might simply buy tickets. (I've even played a Traveller game that did without a PC ship, which was at least a novel take on the setting.)

[AllenOwen]

Originally Posted by beetle496

Should be a good fit, right?

I started to noodle around with some specifics after one of the TV series. I gave up though when I couldn’t think of how I would expose a group of players to enough of the different cultures. If you are not Paul Atreides, you are pretty much stuck to your caste! I am just not creative enough, so I would be better off with the Traveller universe.

Well, there's been a Dune RPG published that is now long out of print, Chronicles of the Imperium, and I think there is one in the works to tie into the upcoming movie, so it has been done and is doable as a setting.

I was looking for opinions on how it might be done in GURPS 4th ed, not in being told it why it can't be done, when I know it can.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by beetle496

If they players are mobile (i.e., important to the plot) they will be from one house, and pretty homogenous.

Or they're agents of the Bene Gesserit or Tleilaxu, see also FFG's Dark Heresy where the PCs are a diverse group in the employ of an Inquisitor, something similar could be arranged with a Patron and diverse crew.

They could be scouts for the Spacer Guild, exploring lost reaches or blazing new trails, marking paths safe for the Navigators to travel.

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

How so? That's like saying "In New York, the government has a lock on subway travel, so you're stuck in one apartment building".

The Guild does rather put it's boot firmly on the neck of the Nobles, for instance interstellar war is impossible if the Guild does not allow for it.

[beetle496]

My road block was my weak imagination. I felt I needed some fleshed out scenerios to get me started.

Originally Posted by AllenOwen

I was looking for opinions on how it might be done in GURPS 4th ed, not in being told it why it can't be done, when I know it can.

Definitely it can be done! And GURPS is a good choice for the mechanics!

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

I've even played a Traveller game that did without a PC ship, which was at least a novel take on the setting.

For much of our Traveller games, back in the day, the PCs did not need a ship. But the Traveller universe allowed for lots of commercial travel, so getting around was never a big deal. With the Dune universe, my impression is that the ships are all huge and every jump a major production. The setting could still serve the plot line well enough, but players could never really hope to aspire to being Han Solo types.

Unless the PC group includes a rogue Guild Steersman…

Wait, could that be a thing? Did any of the books feature this?

It did seem to me that a rouge army (which would be hard to arrange, of course) could kidnap a ship and force the crew to do their bidding under threat of torture. Or would the Guild Steersman be fanatical enough to fly into a sun?

Originally Posted by pestigor

Also, there's a random chance the explosion will be centered on the lasgun so that idea of sniping with a lasgun and setting off small nukes is a no-go.

This never seemed well worked out to me:

1. Taking out a high value target if only a small chance of rebound would still be worth it.
2. Suicide bombers is a thing, so why not suicide snipers?
3. Why not fire the lasgun remotely?
4. It would not be hard to have circumstances such that a small nuke explosion at either location is win/win for a terrorist.

The book just says it is not a possibility like it is some kind of obvious MAD situation. But that was not at all convincing to me.

[AllenOwen]

Originally Posted by beetle496

This never seemed well worked out to me:

1. Taking out a high value target if only a small chance of rebound would still be worth it.
2. Suicide bombers is a thing, so why not suicide snipers?
3. Why not fire the lasgun remotely?
4. It would not be hard to have circumstances such that a small nuke explosion at either location is win/win for the terrorist.

The book just says it is not a possibility like it is some kind of obvious MAD situation. But that did not seem plausible to me.

Use of atomics on people is against the Great Convention. Yes, Muad'dib used his Family Atomics, but only on the Shield Wall, not against people.
Since lasgun-shield explosions look nuclear, they may/will be accused of of contravening the Great Convention.

They are also unpredictable: the explosion might only be enough to kill the gunner and the target, but they might also destroy the whole city. Not very good for precise assassinations.
Duncan Idaho did set up a lasgun to remotely fire at a shield in the first book.
Duncan took a big risk; also he knew the Atreides had lost, and seemed to me a desperation mover.

[cptbutton]

Originally Posted by beetle496

The book just says it is not a possibility like it is some kind of obvious MAD situation. But that was not at all convincing to me.

Originally Posted by AllenOwen

Use of atomics on people is against the Great Convention. Yes, Muad'dib used his Family Atomics, but only on the Shield Wall, not against people.
Since lasgun-shield explosions look nuclear, they may/will be accused of of contravening the Great Convention.

They are also unpredictable: the explosion might only be enough to kill the gunner and the target, but they might also destroy the whole city. Not very good for precise assassinations.
Duncan Idaho did set up a lasgun to remotely fire at a shield in the first book.
Duncan took a big risk; also he knew the Atreides had lost, and seemed to me a desperation mover.

MAD is SOP in the Dune universe at that time. I think it is in Children Of Dune that Lady Jessica muses about how all Great Houses have offplanet atomics for retaliation. I.e. missile silos on asteroids or something. Indeed acquiring that capability is one of the things that makes you a Great House.

The fall of House Atredies was atypical, because of Yueh's treachery and the speed of the military campaign with Saudarkar and the (normally obsolete) explosive artillery. Normally what happens is the enemy Great House invades, and when it is clear that the invader has won, they cut a deal so that the noble and his household get to retire to Tupile, and in return they don't press the Big Red Button.

But on Arrakis, the Harkonnens were able to get into the Ducal Palace and take out the Duke by surprise, and presumably also seized or destroyed the control system for the offplanet atomics.

[beetle496]

Thanks for the reminders about how atomics work in Dune. That makes the interplay between lasguns and shields more plausible. I had totally forgotten Duncan’s use of a remote lasgun. It has been a while since I read the books.

Now, how does the spacers guild protect themselves from rouge nation states? I don’t see how the Great Houses could control all the air space around every planet all the time.

[AllenOwen]

A rogue nation state would find itself cut off from guild services. No guild services, no commerce. No commerce, impoverishment. Also, the emperor would get involved, along with other houses to put that "rogue nation state" down. No one wants anyone ****ing with the guild.

Remember, this isn't star wars. The only way you can travel from star to star is via a Space Guild ship. No one else has the capability; including "space pirates". If a great house had a space pirate problem, it would be on them to put them down immediately; the spacing guild would simply stop services until they did. I guarantee the "space pirates" would not last long..

Again, no one messes with the Spacing Guild.

I don't think a guild navigator would go rogue; they are extremely addicted to spice, and they will need a reliable source just to keep from dying. No one else has foldspace capable ships, and those are the hieghliners. Too big to steal with their crew in the thousands. So even if a navigator became disgruntled, he/she/it would simply have to be disgruntled.

No one else even knows how to build their own foldpsace ships, and if they tried, it would be hard if not impossible to keep secret, and again, no one ****s with the guild and survives.


The Great Houses most certainly controlled their air space; If they can't, they are not a Great House anymore, and the empire will step in and take over.

This is a feudal society; if a minor house on a planet went rogue, it would be up to the great house( the minor house's liege lord) that controls the planet to bring that minor house to heel. Otherwise, the empire and guild will assume this minor house is acting up with the great house's consent; with the appropriate consequences.

[shawnhcorey]

Originally Posted by beetle496

Now, how does the spacers guild protect themselves from rouge nation states? I don’t see how the Great Houses could control all the air space around every planet all the time.

The guild itself maintains weather/spy satellites around planets. That's what the Fremen (via the smugglers) were doing: bribing the guild not to put satellites around Dune.

[AlexanderHowl]

There are some issues with the Dune setting for gaming, primarily that everyone has access to WBDs (not just noble houses, everyone). Forget the ancient atomics, anyone with a laser pistol and a belt force screen possesses a WMD. A janitor could steal the required components in a couple of hours.

Let us examine how a PC would exploit the laser-force field issue. They would a) attach a mechanical timer to a laser pistol, b) attach a mechanical timer to a force screen, c) put the items in a box, d) set the timers for the required time, e) place the box near the target, and f) run away. Even if the explosion is just 0.01 kilotons, it is just too cheap and easy for most PCs to avoid using and, realisticly, every revolutionary should feel the same way. There should be no Empire, no Great Houses, no Noble Houses, because they should all be radioactive dust.

One change that would be required to make the setting useful for gaming would be to make that phenomena different. Perhaps lasers reflect off force screens, making them as useless on the battlefield as atomics because their effects are too random and too indiscriminate? With beam weapons reflecting randomly and kinetic energy weapons being stopped by force shields, battles would be fought by primitive weapons.