Point costs of units vs other units question

[Tim Kauffman]

GEVs seem to be more cost effective against OGREs, like they should cost more when fighting OGREs.

Is it a even fight taking for example 25 GEVs (cost of 25) vs a MARK4 (cost of 25)?

I ask because I have a Scenario when you take all 16 points of armor as GEVs = 16 GEVs and mandatory 18 points of Marines = 3 platoons of Marines vs the MARK4, GEVs seem to have more of an edge than if you take 16 points of Missile Tanks, Mobile Howitzers or Howitzers instead.

For example in a test game, 16 GEVs had Xed all the MARK4s weapons except AP Guns and reduced movement to 44 Tread Units but could always keep out of Tread Unit damage range even when it could move 4. Thus, the GEVs could harry the MARK4 to death with no attacks possible in return. Not good.

When I playtest using units other than GEVs, it's a fair fight, more or less. Curiously, in the first example using 16 GEVs and 3 Marine platoons, the Marines were all Xed, and 9 GEVs remained against a weaponless MARK4 with 44 Tread Units. It almost suggests that GEVs are worth at least double when their only target in a Scenario is an OGRE. Of course this is only a single data point, but for now that's all I have.

[sir_pudding]

Straight up eliminaton isn't a very good scenario goal in general. If the Mark IV can win by escaping, it would probably be more balanced.

[Tim Kauffman]

The Scenario I mentioned has a Combine Rogue OGRE advancing up a defended Paneuropean Delta with it's objective to destroy all enemy opposition in the Delta. It works great as a mission objective in this case and really suits the Scenario Story...except those GEVs becoming problematic when taking too many. I was hoping to avoid deployment stipulations and just let it be based on total armor points available from a unit preset selection. Since that is not possible, I just updated the Scenarios Mandatory Unit Deployment: Paneurope must deploy at least 1 Howitzer and no more than 6 GEVs. This is a Custom Scenario in the STEAM PC game. Currently they have no features to allow anything like this to be preset in-game, but hopefully they eventually will.

OPERATION 4DARK 4DELTA
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfile...?id=1276487390

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Tim Kauffman

The Scenario I mentioned has a Combine Rogue OGRE advancing up a defended Paneuropean Delta with it's objective to destroy all enemy opposition in the Delta. It works great as a mission objective in this case and really suits the Scenario Story...except those GEVs becoming problematic when taking too many. I was hoping to avoid deployment stipulations and just let it be based on total armor points available from a unit preset selection. Since that is not possible, I just updated the Scenarios Mandatory Unit Deployment: Paneurope must deploy at least 1 Howitzer and no more than 6 GEVs. This is a Custom Scenario in the STEAM PC game. Currently they have no features to allow anything like this to be preset in-game, but hopefully they eventually will.

OPERATION 4DARK 4DELTA
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfile...?id=1276487390

How does PE win?

If it is just VP can't the Mark IV win by killing some GEVs and then escaping?

[Tim Kauffman]

Paneurope has to stop the Mark4 by immobilizing it before it eliminates all their defensive forces and their Command Post is destroyed.
The Mark4 can destroy their units and Command Post in any order, but must eliminate all their defenses. It's gone Rogue and is on a mission to neutralize the entire Delta by itself in order to prove itself worthy to The NIGHTFALL.
Paneurope wins when they immobilize the Mark4.

I think having a limit of 6 GEVs will work.

[dwalend]

Originally Posted by Tim Kauffman

GEVs seem to be more cost effective against OGREs, like they should cost more when fighting OGREs.

Is it a even fight taking for example 25 GEVs (cost of 25) vs a MARK4 (cost of 25)?

I ask because I have a Scenario when you take all 16 points of armor as GEVs = 16 GEVs and mandatory 18 points of Marines = 3 platoons of Marines vs the MARK4, GEVs seem to have more of an edge than if you take 16 points of Missile Tanks, Mobile Howitzers or Howitzers instead.

For example in a test game, 16 GEVs had Xed all the MARK4s weapons except AP Guns and reduced movement to 44 Tread Units but could always keep out of Tread Unit damage range even when it could move 4. Thus, the GEVs could harry the MARK4 to death with no attacks possible in return. Not good.

I suspect you've demonstrated that terrain matters a lot. (Can the MkIV beat GEVs and INF on the tan map? I've not tried that, at least not recently enough to remember.)

A river delta may be near-perfect terrain for GEVs - lots of water. Marines deny that MkIV its best tactic - ambush predator in the water.

Without the marines the MkIV should be able to pop up, take out four or so GEVs , absorb their feeble retribution, then slip back into the water. It should be able to do that three or four times.

Further, the MkIV is a raider, not a bruiser like the MkV. It's made to move quickly, snipe from a distance, and retreat to reload. Should it reach the point where it can't fire missiles anymore a MkIV should sprint away. (Reloading a MkIV could make a really interesting scenario.)

Consider some other approaches before limiting the number of GEVs. Change the victory condition to only require destroying the command post. Disallow or limit marines. Use a wider map to give the MkIV more tactical options, including the ability to drive past some of the marines. Give some marines to the MkIV. Load the MkIV with supercavitating missiles that can fire from the water bottom and hit the marines in the water. Make the terrain not favor marines and GEVs so much. Turn some of the water into clear terrain. Add some forest and some streams to spoil the GEVs' movement.

[Tim Kauffman]

Thanks for the suggestions.

It's a fun battle because the MARK4 while Submerged can only be attacked by HWZ and MHWZ, at half Attack Strength. Missile Tanks and GEVs are useless. But the MARK4 cannot attack, however it can move at half movement of 2 to the main mission objective which is the CP at the other end of the Map.
While on land, it can be attacked by everything and move at full movement of 4.

So it becomes a interesting tactical balancing of these two based on what units Paneurope has deployed against the MARK4 = more replay value and varity.

The MARK4s Missile Racks are best Xed first to drastically reduce it's attack range, then the MB and SBs. But then it has the weapon of it's move of 4 and Overruns. Again, another interesting tactical balancing comes into play here.

The reason for the Rogue OGRE mission orienting itself to destroy all Paneuropean units and the CP in no particular order is as follows:

Theoretically Paneurope could take 16 GEVs or 16 Missile Tanks or a combination, but they can't attack the MARK4 when it's Submerged. Which means it could stay underwater until it reaches the land nearest the CP at the other end of the board and is then able to attack and be attacked. In this case, those units would do best to form a screen between the CP and OGRE. But there is only a hex or two between the CP and the water. They would be facing a fully functional undamaged OGRE a few hexes from their CP. On the OGREs turn, it would be a one-shot victory on the CP if that were the end-game victory objective. By having the OGRE be mission oriented to destroy everything (which suits the NIGHTFALL theme and NIGHTSTALKER being too full of hubris) both the Paneuropean units and CP are equally valuable end-game targets.

This also prevents NIGHTSTALKER from just staying Submerged indefinitely and never being able to attack or be attacked because it has to be on land within weapon range to then attack the CP, which means the enemy GEVs and or Missile Tanks could also attack it. It's mission oriented itself to destroy all enemy units and the CP. It won't win until the last enemy unit and CP is destroyed.

I'll have to do more play-testing with all GEVs and or Missile Tanks. Especially with some HWZ and MHWZ mixed in. That's when it becomes most challenging because NIGHTSTALKER has to surface in order to attack them which means it can be attacked by the GEVs and or Missile Tanks. I really would like to keep 3 platoons of Marines in the Scenario though. I'll report back after more play-testing.