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Old 01-26-2023, 10:13 AM   #131
WingedKagouti
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Default Re: GURPS 5E?

Quote:
Originally Posted by acrosome View Post
.The Player's Book would replace GURPS Lite.
GURPS Lite being a stripped down free version is part of the reason it exists. It's also why it's a useful teaching tool, you can get to the core of the gameplay much faster with far fewer distractions.
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Old 01-27-2023, 08:28 PM   #132
Infornific
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Default Re: GURPS 5E?

There's a lot of interesting suggestions here. I'd agree with incorporating Kromm's ten changes. But I think if there's a 5th edition the goal should be to make the system newbie friendly.

I think one way to start that would be to alter how the game is presented. Instead of opening with a massive toolkit and then supplements to help run genres, go in the other direction. Put out a GURPS Action rpg, a revised Dungeon Fantasy rpg, a Monster Hunters rpg etc. Each with its own customized trimmed down version of GURPS. Combine that with the modular character generation system from Delvers to Grow (which would work better if you were sticking to a genre) and you would have a quick and simple way for newbies to get into GURPS while taking full advantage of GURPS detailed combat and character generation.

As it stands, GURPS is implicitly tweaked for every genre and game world. Different mechanics are used and different skills are emphasized for Action vs Dungeon Fantasy vs etc. If you introduce people to GURPS mechanics for a basic genre, it's easier for someone to get the essence of the rules. You can add in a toolkit for all the rules but I would not build the games around everyone starting with the massive toolkit and figuring things out from there.

To compare, Chaosium has the Basic Roleplaying system and even has the Big Gold Book to use as a tool kit. But you don't need it to play Runequest or Call of Cthulu. If you look at Hero Games, Champions Complete & Fantasy Hero Complete sell better than the underlying toolkit books for Hero System 6th edition, at least at DriveThruRpg. Most people don't have the time to plow through a few hundred pages of rules. And don't tell me anything about llteracy standards dropping. Look at rulebooks from the 1980s and they tend to be much slimmer.

If we must have a core book, I would make it much shorter. Don't try to include everything - use genre books for that. So ideally we'd need two books to handle a given genre.

I am not a gaming professional so I could easily be completely delusional here. But if a 5th (or even 4.5) edition is to be more than a personal project it needs to appeal to new gamers and that means low barriers to entry.

Last edited by Infornific; 01-27-2023 at 08:28 PM. Reason: Fixing a typo
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Old 01-29-2023, 10:22 AM   #133
acrosome
 
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Default Re: GURPS 5E?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WingedKagouti View Post
GURPS Lite being a stripped down free version is part of the reason it exists. It's also why it's a useful teaching tool, you can get to the core of the gameplay much faster with far fewer distractions.
C'monyouknowwhatIwassaying.

This notional "Player's Book" would be a complete if basic ruleset in and of itself that purposefully lacks all of the distracting optional complexity that is spread around everywhere in the 4e Basic Set, so it could be used to run very simplified versions of the game alone. Then, once new players and GMs have those rules absorbed they would almost certainly expand into the more complex rules.

I already mentioned an "Advanced Traits" book, but maybe the GMs book should even be deliberately titled "Optional Rules" or "Optional Complexity"?
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Old 01-29-2023, 07:00 PM   #134
Dave_67
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Toronto
Default Re: GURPS 5E?

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Originally Posted by Embassy of Time View Post
I want to go on record that I still think IOU would be the perfect main setting, but since my remark clearly fell on deaf ears, some thoughts :


7: We all KNOW this one, but few dare say it: Get some dedicated and talented fans to do a CritRoll style webshow and promote the hell out of it! This should be a priority for any game publisher, honestly. I'd watch a Munchkin channel. And if that exists, why was it not marketed to bits, at leadt in here?!
My response to this also ties in with calls to use Kickstarter for help. Last fall one company came out on Kickstarter with the Monty Python RPG. By the time they closed pledges, they had over 15,000 backers who put up 1.9 MILLION USD - last update said that after opening up the add-on market for late comers that is now over 2 million. Now, what they also did, because of the overwhelming popularity, was to quickly put together a 77-page PDF introductory module AND have a 3+ hour live stream game play of that module the same day the PDF dropped. (It's on GenCon TV's YouTube page if anyone wants to see it.)

What that did for me was caused moments for me where I was kinda lost reading through the module turned into "Oh, now I get it, that makes sense how that works!" moments as I watched the play-through. Plus, not everyone has to be in the same location...as I've seen in the very few streams that I've watched.
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Old 01-29-2023, 07:54 PM   #135
Infornific
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Default Re: GURPS 5E?

Quote:
Originally Posted by acrosome View Post
C'monyouknowwhatIwassaying.

This notional "Player's Book" would be a complete if basic ruleset in and of itself that purposefully lacks all of the distracting optional complexity that is spread around everywhere in the 4e Basic Set, so it could be used to run very simplified versions of the game alone. Then, once new players and GMs have those rules absorbed they would almost certainly expand into the more complex rules.

I already mentioned an "Advanced Traits" book, but maybe the GMs book should even be deliberately titled "Optional Rules" or "Optional Complexity"?
I think the underlying problem is a conflict between experienced GURPS gamers who want everything in one place and don't mind 500 page rule books vs potential new GURPS players.

There's also the issue that GURPS is implicitly treated as a tool kit with each genre operating under different rules (e.g., who can taking Striking ST and under what condition.) Simplifying the core and making complexity more clearly optional might help new gamers to make that a little more explicit and give them a better sense of how to use GURPS.
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Old 01-29-2023, 08:09 PM   #136
Rolando
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Panama
Default Re: GURPS 5E?

If you make GURPS into a few starter games, each one in a differnet setting or genre it will no longer be Generic, nor Universal.

For it to be GURPS it must be like it is right now, able to handle different genres and eras.

It may have separate introductory books like dungeon fantasy, but even dungeon fantasy rpg is not exactly GURPS.
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Old 01-29-2023, 08:25 PM   #137
restlessgriffin
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Default Re: GURPS 5E?

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Originally Posted by GmEvilleDm View Post
With everything going on about the debacle from wizards of the Coast / Hasbro, have you thought about creating a 5e? There are a lot of people out there I think that would love to see GURPS have a renaissance!

Me especially if it came with conversion info.

I might even know people who would want to play test it for you. 😁
I don't see this happening. Steve Jackson Games is a rather small company and not at all agile. GURPS 4e has been around a LONG time. In order to do a 5e it really needs to be done RIGHT!

My objectives would be:

1. Simplify.
2. Streamline
3. Make things consistent
4. Speed matters -- make things run faster.


Examples:
  • Ranged combat
  • Truthfulness vs Honesty
  • Cinematic Games need to run quicker
  • Base magic system needs spells built using Powers and spell list streamlined
  • Make base system more consistent so Dungeon Fantasy and DFRPG are consistent

There are lot of things that need to be looked at. It is NOT a trivial task. It probably can't be done in less than a year at best. Probably more like 3. That's a LOT pf resources to sink into doing a new edition. Unless there are a LOT more people looking to come play GURPS it probably won't be worth the expense and risk.

The one major thing GURPS lacks is a blockbuster background that can be used to market the game and capitalize on things like videogames and movies.

For instance, Vampire: The Masquerade has the World of Darkness background to capitalize on -- it's gotten a TV series, and a few videogames done. FASA got a few videogames done for Mechwarriors, Mech Assault, and Shadowrun. That fizzled out for FASA, but the potential was there.

Videogames, movies, and TV provides deep pockets. Off course, there is that sell out factor and making a deal with the devil ...

But hey, deep pockets. More resources to fund TTRPG games.
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Old 01-29-2023, 08:34 PM   #138
Fred Brackin
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Default Re: GURPS 5E?

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Originally Posted by restlessgriffin View Post
I
My objectives would be:

1. Simplify.
2. Streamline
3. Make things consistent
4. Speed matters -- make things run faster.


Examples:
  • [*
  • Base magic system needs spells built using Powers and spell list streamlined
    [*

Ts.
You aren't going to streamline nor speed up anything built as Powers. The Powers system should probably be on the table as something to be left out of a simplified version of the game. It is the most complex art of the game bar none.
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Old 01-30-2023, 06:37 AM   #139
restlessgriffin
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Default Re: GURPS 5E?

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
You aren't going to streamline nor speed up anything built as Powers. The Powers system should probably be on the table as something to be left out of a simplified version of the game. It is the most complex art of the game bar none.
The spells would look similar to the way they are now. They'd just be BUILT with Powers for consistency and logic. All of the underlying details would be stipped away. Whenever spells need to be added there's a detailed system that would allow the addition of spells. This is instead of just compare to other spells and guestimate. All the heavy lifting would be done by SJ Games staff.
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Old 01-30-2023, 06:49 AM   #140
restlessgriffin
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Default Re: GURPS 5E?

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Originally Posted by VIVIT View Post
One of my biggest frustrations with GURPS is the abundance of what I'm going to call "lookalike mechanics"—mechanics that work in similar ways, but with inconstencies. The example that comes to mind right now is one roll applying a modifier to another roll: Acrobatic Dodge, Specious Intimidation, that one application of Symbol Drawing that lets you add half your MoS to Ritual Magic... and then there are Complementary Skills, which "A Full Complement" expands into a Generic, Universal mechanic that perfectly encapsulate this particular concept.

It wasn't until I realized that Complementary Skills had been added to a reprint of Basic Set that I realized how badly I wanted a GURPS 5e, or got a clear picture of what I would want from it: unification. Don't just tack on a rudimentary version of the mechanic on as an afterthought—integrate it into the heart of the system by reimplementing things like Acrobatic Dodge and Specious Intimidation as complementary rolls.
Agreed. One thing I find frustrating is skills like Traps-N where you can't just use the skill as written. Say you have Traps-16. You don't always roll verses Traps-16 based on IQ. It is really IQ based to set a trap, Per based for finding traps, and DX based to disarm a trap. So it really should be written something like Traps [IQ/Per/DX]-16/13/12. As much as possible things should be done at character creation time and adjusted when Experience points are awarded/spent. Remove as much memorization and look up as possible. That way game play is streamlined and sped up.
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