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Old 12-05-2018, 03:50 PM   #41
evileeyore
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Default Re: ST-Based Skills

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
I should add, in case you don't have TG, that the section in question is about giving you some sort of defense or resistance roll after you've made an All-Out Attack. The alternative to using ST (or ST-4 in this case) is "you lose, do not pass Go, do not collect $200. Sorry, T-Rex . . .the mouse just did a takedown on you."
My solution to that was to not treat break free attempts as Attacks. ;)
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Old 12-05-2018, 05:02 PM   #42
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Default Re: ST-Based Skills

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Originally Posted by dataweaver View Post
Instead of ST as a proxy for mass, how about a mass-based bonus or penalty to the various muscle-centric attacks (bear hugs, forcing a change in position or posture, lifts, throws, shoves, and sweeps)? Base it on how the target's mass compares to the attacker's BL. The mouse will fail to do a takedown on the T-Rex not because the T-Rex makes a saving roll against it, but because the mouse can't possibly overcome the penalty imposed by the truly massive discrepancy between its BL and the T-Rex's mass.
This is effectively a mass-based move, detailed right near the grappling encumbrance table. The ST as proxy for mass thing was pretty much explicitly useful when resisting a contest, and I'm fairly sure (but not 100%) that all my examples are allowing a ST-4 roll to resist things like takedowns, piledrivers, etc, where moving a foe around, AoA or not, should be hard.

At some point, Peter and I discussed moving away from contests of skill altogether, in which case the "make a penalized skill roll" for many of the things that are currently resolved as quick contests would be 100% awesome.
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Old 12-05-2018, 05:02 PM   #43
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Default Re: ST-Based Skills

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
My solution to that was to not treat break free attempts as Attacks. ;)
Except break free doesn't use ST as a proxy for mass? I'm missing how this isn't a non sequitur...amplify?
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Old 12-05-2018, 07:34 PM   #44
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Default Re: ST-Based Skills

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Except break free doesn't use ST as a proxy for mass? I'm missing how this isn't a non sequitur...amplify?
The "because the grappler AOA'ed they can't stop their grabbed foe's break free attempt". By my not treating break free as an attack, the AOA'ing grappler doesn't auto fail when he resists his foes break free.

It's only a non-sequitur to your discussion about changing how ST works in relation to break free resistance. It's right on target for the side-digression you're having about grapples and break free. Also this is another way to skin that particular cat, but in a way that doesn't require ST to be changed... so... right on topic.
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Old 12-05-2018, 08:22 PM   #45
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Default Re: ST-Based Skills

The thing that lets “break free as an attack” work is that in TG, it isn't an all-or-nothing: the “break free” roll is only the first step, which gets followed by the “damage roll” where you determine how many Control Points are available to break the hold. So even if the T.Rex doesn't get to roll to defend against the Break Free, the mouse isn't going to be able to get anywhere near the number of Control Points needed to break the T. Rex's hold.
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Old 12-06-2018, 01:05 AM   #46
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Default Re: ST-Based Skills

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Originally Posted by dataweaver View Post
The problem with making it Move-based is that Move is, as Kromm puts it, extrinsic: it doesn't fit nicely into a 3–18 range (even for normal humans, though that's trivially addressed by basing it on 2×Move instead), and can vary wildly for non-human characters — especially odd-sized ones such as giants or Borrowers. Better to base it on Speed instead, as Speed is “intrinsic”.

When I made my initial suggestion though, I was operating off of the assumption that Running is more or less worth the points as written, so any boost to movement should be modest. Having it provide Trained Move isn't cost-effective if the primary reason for buying Running is for additional ground Move; but as a fringe benefit, that's a different story. (Also, where does it say that Running and Fit don't stack? I'm not finding it.)

Another possible approach would be to model Running on Lifting: that is, have the margin of success give you a percentage increase to your Move.
Move-based for the purposes of calculating running speed.

As for the non-stacking, Fit/Very Fit explicitly only enhances all rolls against HT, but not against HT skills (B55). So if your HT is, say, 14, you should either get Very Fit or Running to enable Marathons. Actually you should get the former as it's vastly better even though slightly more expensive.
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Old 12-06-2018, 01:42 AM   #47
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Default Re: ST-Based Skills

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The thing that lets “break free as an attack” work is that in TG...
I don't use Technical Grappling so that really doesn't apply in my games. And it won't work for anyone else who doesn't use TG.

Whereas Doug's suggestion and mine, both will. Just from different directions.



(Though I admit, I do like the -4 to ST for grapplers that have taken Maneuvers that deprive them of defenses. I'll have to think on that.)
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Old 12-06-2018, 04:20 AM   #48
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Default Re: ST-Based Skills

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Originally Posted by dataweaver View Post
The thing that lets “break free as an attack” work is that in TG, it isn't an all-or-nothing: the “break free” roll is only the first step, which gets followed by the “damage roll” where you determine how many Control Points are available to break the hold. So even if the T.Rex doesn't get to roll to defend against the Break Free, the mouse isn't going to be able to get anywhere near the number of Control Points needed to break the T. Rex's hold.
Not to mention the Active control T-rex has from its grapple will hinder the mouse's attempts anyway

There was a recent thread discussing break Free were DouglasCole Made some alternative suggestions for streamlining Breaking free in with a gapple.
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Old 12-07-2018, 01:10 AM   #49
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Default Re: ST-Based Skills

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Brute Parry is just a damage roll, IIRC, not a strength-as-skill roll. So that doesn't change. I don't have a problem with damage rolls.
Are you thinking of Aggressive Parry? Muscling It on page 26 says "Anywhere you can make a skill-based parry, you may substitute effective ST for skill" against grapples.

If you changed things so relative ST influenced the DX roll, this would be 2 birds with one stone since you could both phase out Brute Parry and the hard cap against parrying strong attackers.
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