Strength (ST) in high TL settings - Pricing?

[Daigoro]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

You can still get a jacked up bioroid without having them be a slave (though I would take DX+2 over ST+4 any day of the week). Just give them the same rights as your citizens and you do not lose the moral highground.

I'm not sure what stormtrooper clone factory is going to allow their output of purpose-built soldieroids to have the choice not to be a soldier.

[AlexanderHowl]

Psyops are as much a part of the battlefield as any other tactics, so perceptions matter. If your bioroids know that they only have to complete a 6-year contract before they are free and clear, they will have little reason to rebel. If they also have citizen rights, and pay, during that time (at least the equivalent of that of any other soldier), then they will feel a part of the society they are defending. The fact that most of them will extend their contracts because they know nothing else is just a benefit to society, while the few that do not will allow their society to show that the bioroids are valued citizens beyond their combat capabilities.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by Daigoro

I'm not sure what stormtrooper clone factory is going to allow their output of purpose-built soldieroids to have the choice not to be a soldier.

Frame it as a quality assurance issue. You don't expect every silicon chip produced to work, so you test them. Do you really want that defective soldier who didn't come out of his decanting tank ready to kill the enemy?

They're going to need to work in most cases anyways, and you can fairly ethically train them most of the way before you give them the choice of career. How many people will say "I'm going to leave all the people I know and grew up with to take a lower paying job in an environment I don't understand". Some will, but most will not.

As a variant, let them choose how long they are in the armed forces, and which branches and fields they get into. Are you an army man, or are you going to the marines?

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

You can still get a jacked up bioroid without having them be a slave (though I would take DX+2 over ST+4 any day of the week). Just give them the same rights as your citizens and you do not lose the moral highground. The fact that they cannot naturally reproduce is just an added bonus.

One thing about ST vs DX - for a PC, DX is quite valuable. For an infantryman in an army it's not really - they don't make that many aimed shots. Aside from a couple of shooting (or melee at low TL) skills, most of the skills vital to infantry are mental, and modern armies value intelligence in their soldiers, and if you look at GURPS' skill list, it reflects this. Players, in my experience, place high value on DX because it's very obvious when you combat skills aren't as good as you'd like. It's less obvious that the reason the party is getting in trouble is because they keep losing Observation vs Camouflage checks, blowing their Tactics checks, etc.

[Verjigorm]

Originally Posted by Rupert

One thing about ST vs DX - for a PC, DX is quite valuable. For an infantryman in an army it's not really - they don't make that many aimed shots. Aside from a couple of shooting (or melee at low TL) skills, most of the skills vital to infantry are mental, and modern armies value intelligence in their soldiers, and if you look at GURPS' skill list, it reflects this. Players, in my experience, place high value on DX because it's very obvious when you combat skills aren't as good as you'd like. It's less obvious that the reason the party is getting in trouble is because they keep losing Observation vs Camouflage checks, blowing their Tactics checks, etc.

And whem high ST means everyone of your soldiers can carry more sensors to expand their observational capabilities, more counter measures to protect you, and more weapons to provide organic fire support that is networked together?

I might not be the best shot, but when anyone in my company can designate a contact, hand it off to me, and then i can use my radar and computer to create a firing solution, and i might just have an AI capable of doing most of that for me? Thats powerful.

[AlexanderHowl]

At TL10, you can make some really powerful bioroids, 200+ CP without being ridiculous, which means that your ST+4 bioroids can also have DX+2, IQ+2, HT+2, etc. When you toss those bioroids in Commando Battlesuits and have them dual wield Portable Railguns, now you are talking about a soldier that can take out lesser enemy soldiers by the dozen. They might cost five times much to produce and equip, but they are probably worth far more than five lesser bioroids soldiers.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Any trait that limits a slave from rebelling will likely limit their functionality on the battlefield.

Sense of Duty (Etherial Caste rulers of our Federation of Greater Good) doesn't limit battlefield functionality, in fact it somewhat improves battlefield functionality because it is de facto comparable to just having higher morale for all units as a side effect.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

The reasoning is simple: You're suggesting that the paradigms at TL5-8 remain true at TL9-10.

No, I'm suggesting that as TL goes up, things tend to get both lighter and more effective, even if you aren't playing with battle suits, vehicles, drones, and other "aids" that can carry weapons for you.

Consider your basic "rifle" at TL10:

Aside from Plasma, most weapons either require ST10 or less or are intended to be mounted on something. At TL10, they have fairly good penetration and fairly large ammo capacities. Armor is still a good idea, but depending on the weapons you might be better off dodging or with (tech based) camouflage.

Other gear? In the future, you'll probably have vehicles (drones or mules) that can travel to carry the bulk of your non-fighting gear.

Again, while you might have +1 Dodge from your DX, your combat load may very well reduce Dodge by 2, while that "dumb strong guy" has no encumberance, and has +1 dodge, as well as more equipment(especially DR!).

Let's look at the points side of that:
ST15 BL45. Lt enc: 90 lbs, more HP, striking Dmg boost, -1 dodge
ST11 DX11 HT 12. Med Enc: 72 lbs, +1 skill, +2 to HT rolls. +1 speed, -1 dodge

Almost all the experienced players go with option 2: diversify out of ST. Buy up HT if you need speed and DX if you need accuracy. Throw a point or two in ST for enc/HP.

Why? Because while ST sounds cool when you can load up with gear or fight in broom closets, that's just not how most games play out. You'll often be fighting at a range, sometimes deprived of your gear (where option 2 gives you more speed/dodge to run or fight). There are just better buys than ST for its cost.

Striking strength is kinda a meh investment, though I will point out that a Super Fine Vibro Thrusting Broadsword in the hands of a ST30 guy i doing something like 7d+1(5) cutting damage, or around 25.5 damage, and penetrates a lot of armor. Granted, you gotta get close, but hey, those are the breaks. But when you go up against a space marine with DR 180 on his torso and head, and DR 130 every where else, that DX ain't gonna make your 2d+3(5) vibro sword hurt him, or . It's not gonna make your ETC Storm Carbine penetrate any better.

No, but it make you godly with a monowire whip that will slice him like hot butter while you dance like an Eldar. Either way, it's equipment making the difference.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by naloth

Why? Because while ST sounds cool when you can load up with gear or fight in broom closets, that's just not how most games play out. You'll often be fighting at a range, sometimes deprived of your gear (where option 2 gives you more speed/dodge to run or fight). There are just better buys than ST for its cost.

'Sometimes deprived of your gear', in my experience more often means 'lost your ride and your sherpa-bot' than it means 'lost so much gear even the ST10-11 character doesn't need to decide what to keep'.

No, but it make you godly with a monowire whip that will slice him like hot butter while you dance like an Eldar. Either way, it's equipment making the difference.

It's equipment making the difference when you're claiming high TL means ST isn't important.

By the way, TL8 gear is lighter and more effective than TL5-6 gear, and yet modern light infantry carries more weight than TL5-6 light infantry did (and they carried more than TL2-3 light infantry did).

[AlexanderHowl]

One of the idiocies associated with the modern military is loading 100-150 lbs on every soldier. Not only does it reduce combat effectiveness, it also causes long term disability by damaging the back and the legs. You would think that the military had not heard of mules...

Compare that to a character in a Commando Battlesuit. They might have to carry twice as much, but 300 lbs is nothing to ST 25 (not even exceeding Medium Encumbrance). A force that used Commando Battlesuits would pity any force that did not, though the feeling would be brief due to the horrific lethality of their concentrated fire.