Strength (ST) in high TL settings - Pricing?

[OldSam]

Hey folks,
certainly most of us know that ST does not scale very well when it comes to higher techlevels. An ancient TL2 warrior obviously gets more out of the points, than the big muscle guy on the TL10 spaceship for instance...

Of course, this kind of balancing always requires some GM decision because it depends a lot on the campaign specifics.

But do we have some kind of formula or table for ST scaling to help a GM with that decision? Giving suggestions which discount for ST could typically be fair at a higher techlevel...?

Maybe I just did not see it, yet... Thanks for any links or own ideas! ;)

[whswhs]

I don't do discounts of that sort, any more than I would give a character in a low-mana world a discount on Magery. If players think that ST isn't very useful in a high-tech setting, they can build characters with less ST. The ST 12 character with BL 29 lbs. may be just as exceptionally strong at TL 9 as the ST 15 character with BL 45 lbs. at TL 3.

[Maz]

Ive played and GMed many different types of sci-fi and 'modern' games.

And I have never played with discount on ST nor needed it.
Being able to grab someone and be stronger than they are so they cant get free, is priceless at any TL.

In modern games where people have little equipment apart from a gun or two, ST is less important. But its still nice to be able to punch for 1d+1 instead of 1d-2 when you get into an unarmed brawl.

In scifi game you get more accees to body armour, and ST once more become relevant as encumbrance reduce dodge and move. You also get acees to powered melee weapons such as vibro-weapons, making melee combat viable again.

Why do you feel ST loose its worth? You mention its worth more to a TL:2 hunter. Yea sure. But maybe they should then pay more for it.

[ericthered]

This is a sore point for many on the forum.

I've used ST at [5] in my settings quite a lot, not just in ultra-tech situations either. In some games people will go for it, in others they won't. I usually make HP still worth [2], lifting ST worth [1] and striking ST worth [2].

Some people try to boost the ST score Sky high when they see this. I usually require them to look like their ST score, and if their ST is above 14 I will consider if such a score is appropriate for the game (this is a cinematic vs. realism consideration).

I have a more extreme version of this were I put huge discounts on Racial Packages that can be replicated by gear, and in many cases this includes ST. My most popular template in a space detective game was "Snow-Tiger People", which I charged 20 points for and had ST+5 in addition to to enhanced senses, temperature tolerance (the campaign happened in a yukon environment), and natural weapons. The template was popular not for all this, but because everybody wants to be a cat. The Power Gamers went for other options. And I can't say they made the wrong choices.

As a note, my play style downplays Strength. Combat is rare, gear is cheap, and when violence occurs it involves heavy weapons and NPC backup. ST is worth less in those sorts of games.

I've heard of people charging 5 points for ST in fantasy games. One character played an ogre, and the GM commented that while 50 points of ST let him obliterate certain obstacles, other characters had 50 point advantages that were just as effective. ST is a nice power because it doesn't intrude on others niches.

[Donny Brook]

I dunno, CQB with an LMG seems kind of potent.

[AlexanderHowl]

The overall utility of high ST does decrease as TL increases beyond 8, as armor grants ST and as weapon damage further diverges from ST. For example, a TL10 character in a Commando Battlesuit has effective ST 25 for lifting and striking, meaning that they can use Gauss HMG as two handed weapons and can dual wield Portable Railguns. In fact, the latter would be a rather awesome feat of Gun Fu...

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

The overall utility of high ST does decrease as TL increases beyond 8, as armor grants ST and as weapon damage further diverges from ST. For example, a TL10 character in a Commando Battlesuit has effective ST 25 for lifting and striking, meaning that they can use Gauss HMG as two handed weapons and can dual wield Portable Railguns. In fact, the latter would be a rather awesome feat of Gun Fu...

I think that you've just furnished a striking counterexample to your general statement!

But it's perfectly true that overall utility of traits varies between settings. But it's a basic principle of GURPS to ignore that in setting point costs. I've run entire campaigns where there were only two fight scenes in over two years; that didn't make Combat Reflexes cost less. And I could multiply such examples.

There is a contrary case, which is that a trait that makes no difference costs no points; for example, in Portal Realms, I said that a trait that you had in your home realm, that would never be of any use in the Portal Realm, was a feature worth 0 points. If ST is simply irrelevant to a setting, you might say that it's worth 0 points and you can have as much or as little as you want. But I don't think I can envision that setting.

[(E)]

At some settings in higher TLs it wouldn't be out of place to have some ST available for cash.
Various cybernetic and biological enhancements for one. At TLs closer to our own the GM could say that spending time and money on specialized exercise and diet regimes could add a point or two, though they may add various restrictions.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by (E)

At some settings in higher TLs it wouldn't be out of place to have some ST available for cash.
Various cybernetic and biological enhancements for one. At TLs closer to our own the GM could say that spending time and money on specialized exercise and diet regimes could add a point or two, though they may add various restrictions.

For that sort of thing I follow the same principle as the basic set has for raising Appearance, which requires both putting points into it and coming up with the time for a fitness regime or the cash and recovery time for surgery.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

I dunno, CQB with an LMG seems kind of potent.

Its less potent than you'd think. In video games it feels OP because your characters are able to take more than one hit, and because aims (both player and NPC) are relatively low. In Gurps most of the time a single hit will suffice. On the occasions when a single riffle shot won't work, I find that the increased caliber of the LMG doesn't really make that much difference. The rate of fire is mostly useful for increasing the chance to hit, and there are more efficient ways to do that than hefting a weapon with a greater ROF. Compare to a High skill character using shaped charge grenades, or a gunslinger using HEMP ammo in a 15mm gyroc or pistol.

Originally Posted by whswhs

I think that you've just furnished a striking counterexample to your general statement!

But the character described didn't spend [150] points on ST. He spent 80k on a battlesuit (about [4] points of signature gear), and enough points on battlesuit to not cap the skills he wishes to use.

But it's perfectly true that overall utility of traits varies between settings. But it's a basic principle of GURPS to ignore that in setting point costs. I've run entire campaigns where there were only two fight scenes in over two years; that didn't make Combat Reflexes cost less. And I could multiply such examples.

That's the strongest and best argument for keeping ST the same so far. I understand that switching up the costs for every trait in every setting could lead to confusion and be a little tiring to keep up with. There is a case to be made there.

I find strength to be the advantage that makes this issue come up the most often. Its also an edge case in almost every situation, as an attribute that doesn't act like any of the other attributes. So I don't feel nearly as bad making it an edge case.

I also feel like I can justify ST costing [5] in almost any campaign. Even in an unarmed martial arts game, high DX beats out high ST at [10/level]. Yes, High ST is nice, and its powerful, but [50] is a lot of points, and ST 20 doesn't feel out of proportion for [50] points, even in a fantasy game.

In some ultra-tech games, I consider high ST be nearly an accessory perk: exoskeleton. That's a different case, but its a case where Gurps does commonly change its point costs. Of course, its only valid if powered exoskeletons are common technology.