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Old 10-26-2018, 01:17 PM   #21
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Default Re: [AtE] Black Powder vs Smokeless

The process I read about for extracting sulphur was bacteria based. Basically a decomposition pit with a hood to capture the sulphur in gas form. It struck me as suitable for a relatively organized AtE community with the added perk of having a "salvaging the luxuries of the past to make the necessities of the present" feel to it.
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Old 10-26-2018, 03:16 PM   #22
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Default Re: [AtE] Black Powder vs Smokeless

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Originally Posted by malloyd View Post
Incidentally the powder isn't necessarily the hardest part of making a smokeless powder round, you also need to think about primers. You can set off black powder with pretty much anything that will make a spark, but smokeless powder is a bit harder.
The chemistry for primers is fairly well known. It doesn't seem to be that hard to make mostly stable primers if you don't have an all-weather spec, don't demand a stable 20+ shelf life, and don't mind that you're putting nasty corrosive gunk down your barrel. Smokeless powder with mostly reliable primers is such an advantage over black powder that I'd cope with needing to clean the barrels regularly and replace them somewhat sooner.

Managing production of primer might be a problem. A settlement is going to want enough on hand to last through an emergency, but not so much that they have a stockpile of unpredictably decaying primers that occasionally go boom. Wastelanders should be wary of settlements that want to give the out-of-towners an especially good deal on bulk ammo.
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Old 10-26-2018, 06:18 PM   #23
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Default Re: [AtE] Black Powder vs Smokeless

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Originally Posted by mlangsdorf View Post
Managing production of primer might be a problem. A settlement is going to want enough on hand to last through an emergency, but not so much that they have a stockpile of unpredictably decaying primers that occasionally go boom. Wastelanders should be wary of settlements that want to give the out-of-towners an especially good deal on bulk ammo.
The compounds used in primers are pretty nasty overall, and the chances are good that the people making them will not be enjoying long and healthy lives, even by post-ruin standards.

The same goes for people salvaging the lead and acid from car batteries of course.
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Old 10-26-2018, 09:09 PM   #24
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Default Re: [AtE] Black Powder vs Smokeless

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Incidentally the powder isn't necessarily the hardest part of making a smokeless powder round, you also need to think about primers.
This is the part that is most interesting to me. Primers, even without smokeless powder, mean the difference between single-shot flintlocks and revolvers. Unfortunately, the conversation usually gets as far as "yep, primers are difficult to make, people tend to blow themselves up", and then it stops. I'm not asking for enough detail to blow myself up, but at least how such an industry would work in GURPS terms.

(I know about flintlock revolvers. They were inefficient, difficult to use, and are mostly irrelevant curiosities as far as setting design is concerned.)
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Old 10-26-2018, 09:32 PM   #25
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Default Re: [AtE] Black Powder vs Smokeless

I've read about people using matchheads to refill caps during the depression, but I can't verify that. (you may also have to lead the target a bit if the is any lag due to improper chemicals)
While I'm unsure of the chemistry required for the extraction some of the same chemicals are in lithium batteries. Brew up a pot of smartphones maybe ?
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Old 10-26-2018, 10:10 PM   #26
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Default Re: [AtE] Black Powder vs Smokeless

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Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
Well, my search was worth it just for the amusement value.

3) "Employ a catalyst made up of vanadium pentoxide and an alkali metal sulfate supported on small silica beads at high temperature."

4) Reduce the sulfur dioxide to sulfur... with a cerium oxide catalyst
Yeah, nah. There's a bit of heavy industry in play (the occasional smelter), but no industrial refineries or chemical plants. I'm feeling conflicted about having 25% of the wind turbines still running, basically to power the former.

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The process I read about for extracting sulphur was bacteria based. It struck me as suitable for a relatively organized AtE community ...
Noice. Given that sulphur is not that common here, that's a viable <waves hands> work around.

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Originally Posted by malloyd View Post
Incidentally the powder isn't necessarily the hardest part of making a smokeless powder round, you also need to think about primers.
Oh, I've been thinking of them. Was thinking of saying that it's available as trade with *somewhere else* <furiously waves hands>...

But I do like the point you make regarding unreliable primers. Was watching Gun Jesus testing some Ethiopian Army surplus 7.62mm NATO ammo. The hang fires were slightly nervy, once Ian explained the potential danger. Malfunction rolls are going to be fun....
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Old 10-27-2018, 08:37 AM   #27
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Default Re: [AtE] Black Powder vs Smokeless

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Originally Posted by lugaid View Post
This is the part that is most interesting to me. Primers, even without smokeless powder, mean the difference between single-shot flintlocks and revolvers. Unfortunately, the conversation usually gets as far as "yep, primers are difficult to make, people tend to blow themselves up", and then it stops. I'm not asking for enough detail to blow myself up, but at least how such an industry would work in GURPS terms.
I don't get that. Mercury fulminate was first synthesized in 1800 and it doesn't seem like a complicated process: dissolve mercury in nitric acid, then carefully add ethanol and let the results dry. I'm not saying it's a particularly safe thing to make, but gunpowder mills blow up sometimes, too.

Medium quality, possibly corrosive, not 100% reliable, likely to degrade over time and suddenly go boom primers are something people have been making for over 200 years. You can probably make it in a high school chem lab. You'll need to be careful where you store them, and I wouldn't want to have a large stockpile of primers or keep any primers for more than a few months, but primers are definitely something that AtE settlements can make.
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Old 10-27-2018, 01:40 PM   #28
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Default Re: [AtE] Black Powder vs Smokeless

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Originally Posted by mlangsdorf View Post
I don't get that. Mercury fulminate was first synthesized in 1800 and it doesn't seem like a complicated process
Doesn't have to be complicated to be problematic. Requiring high purity ingredients and/or very precise control over manufacturing processes is plenty.
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Old 10-27-2018, 02:07 PM   #29
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Default Re: [AtE] Black Powder vs Smokeless

Poking around a bit more, it seems Western Australia does have a lot of pyrite, and historically that was used as a source of sulfur. To extract elemental sulfur, all you have to do it heat it up in one vessel (like a clay pot) and pipe the gas over to cool in a second one. Biggest drawback seems to be you'll also get some hydrogen sulfide, which is toxic. (But hey, life is cheap in the Wasteland anyway. You don't have to work _that_ hard to minimize accidents.) If you start with iron pyrite, you also wind up with iron. Or you can do the same process with galena, and get lead. (Because you want musket balls to go with your black powder.)
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Old 10-27-2018, 03:02 PM   #30
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Default Re: [AtE] Black Powder vs Smokeless

There was this one video Forgotten Weapons did on a early automatic rifle which he commented that smokeless quality varied at the time. So if there was smokeless production, it could cause malfunctions on the guns because it'll have to much pressure on the gas pistons.

Last edited by SteamBub; 10-27-2018 at 03:17 PM. Reason: Found the video. Fixed the reason why poor quality smokeless is bad.
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