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Old 06-30-2019, 12:01 PM   #1
MikMod
 
Join Date: May 2019
Default (When) Can Goblins Lie?

Hi People! I would appreciate some viewpoints on this subject :)

I have an NPC clan of goblins and the idea that their leader wants to carry out some subterfuge to advance his clan. But how much can goblins lie?
  • Can they create misdirection?
  • What about false trails?
  • What about planting false evidence?
  • Or fibbing about their involvement and real motives?

And if one of the clan gets caught by the party, can they lie about what they have done? Under torture? Can they make false promises under some circumstances - if the stakes are high enough? And how uncomfortable does that make them?

Is it only a sworn promise that is 'guaranteed true' by goblin lore? Or does their essential honesty (?!) seep into all they do?

Many thanks!
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Old 06-30-2019, 12:29 PM   #2
Anaraxes
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Default Re: (When) Can Goblins Lie?

Why do you say "can never lie"? I remember the bit in ITL about goblins never going back on their word. But that's not the same thing as not lying. "Your word" refers to deliberate sworn oaths, not everything that comes out of your mouth, and going back on your word would just be not contradicting yourself -- which in the lying case would just mean sticking to your lie, not telling the truth. (The literal oath-keeping trait is given to goblins on Cidri, but it's an obvious nod to the common occurrence of that trait in mythology, whether faeries or other supernatural creatures.)

Given that even faithful goblins are allowed to adhere to the letter of the oath rather than the spirit (again, hearkening back to those fey or demonic bargains), I think even a honest, truth-telling goblin would be allowed to deceive with the truth. Even humans have been known to observe that telling the partial truth is the best way to lie. Or as Mr. Spock would say, he didn't lie, he just exaggerated.

If you want really pure creatures that are so intrinsically honest and honorable that they wouldn't even consider any sort of lying, you probably don't want to use the word "goblin", unless you're intentionally trying to subvert tropes and go for the surprise value. More like "angel".

If you're looking for any sort of realism -- not necessarily a given in fantasy -- then oath-keeping is merely a cultural trait of goblins, an ideal and something that parents try to teach while raising children, not an intrinsic and unalterable property of brain structure. So any individual goblin might well be a despicable oath-breaker by the standards of that culture, even if most of them do have remarkable integrity. But then, you notice how many humans don't live up to their ideals of their cultures.
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Old 06-30-2019, 01:42 PM   #3
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: (When) Can Goblins Lie?

It is important for a GM and players of goblin PCs to be clear what exactly they don't do.

I agree with MikMod that it seems to me it must be a cultural thing, and would vary by each goblin culture. Such as an extreme taboo, or other strong systems of ideas and values.

I also agree with MikMod that it seems pretty clear in ITL that "their word" is about promises, contracts, and so on. It's also clearly not about avoiding deceiving others, as that's in fact specifically something they delight in doing while sticking to the letter of their promises.

I see it as a severe cultural code of honor (and matter of pride, ego and delight) to keep one's promises, and a taboo or possibly even cognitive conditioning issue against doing otherwise.

That might or might not extend to honesty or truthfulness, which are two different things that wouldn't logically need to apply to someone who keeps promises.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikMod View Post
  • Can they create misdirection?
  • What about false trails?
  • What about planting false evidence?
  • Or fibbing about their involvement and real motives?
I would say all these are very doable by goblins. These actions are all about truthfulness, honesty, and/or communication, not about keeping promises per se, unless they gave a promise to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth and never attempt to mislead anyone nor take actions that might convey false impressions. I imagine goblins would be very hard to convince to make those sorts of promises (at east not without some loopholes in mind).
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Old 06-30-2019, 04:23 PM   #4
TippetsTX
 
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Default Re: (When) Can Goblins Lie?

I imagine them as a race of ruthless corporate lawyers... bound by their nature to a unique sense of ethics and the enforcement of extreme 'order' (lies are the language of chaos after all). They are all about the 'letter of the law'. That said, however, they are not above obfuscation of the truth and contract loopholes.
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Old 07-01-2019, 12:30 PM   #5
MikMod
 
Join Date: May 2019
Default Re: (When) Can Goblins Lie?

Thanks for your input guys!

I was thinking maybe they might find it hard/un-natural to lie and this might make them shifty or awkward and give the party some clue that there might be something going on.

Or as Anaraxes put it so well, they might be best to

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
deceive with the truth
Which might also be more interesting to role-play.

The RAW does say they are trusted in business, and given they are generally much more intelligent than the other races, they cannot be tricking and swindling people all the time or they would not have that reputation I think*.



*Or maybe they are just getting away with it!
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Old 07-01-2019, 03:27 PM   #6
kjamma4
 
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Default Re: (When) Can Goblins Lie?

When they are tired.
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Old 07-04-2019, 10:14 AM   #7
Anomylous
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Default Re: (When) Can Goblins Lie?

I interpret "goblins don't lie" as meaning that goblins will not knowingly make false statements, maybe because they're psychologically incapable of it. So if a goblin says something, you know it's true to the best of zir knowledge.

However, that still allows for all kinds of subterfuge in the form of misleading half-truths, etc.

Because it's a really good story, I want to tell the tale of a goblin character I once played:

The character was originally an NPC, the chief engineer of a mining operation, which had accidentally set off a volcano and thus royally peeved everyone in the vicinity, whose livelihoods were more or less wrecked.

The main player party had been tasked with figuring out who was responsible for the volcano and bringing them to justice. I was coming into the adventure late, so the GM handed me the character concept and said "here, build this guy and give them a run for their money". I was one of the most experienced players at the table, so I managed to pull some pretty good tricks (like getting one of the especially munchkin-y players to step within range of a Sleep gas bomb), but ultimately got caught and brought to court, with the Elf King and Dwarf King both in attendance (and of course when those two team up, you know it's serious!).

My character knew that the remnants of his clan, who had survived the eruption, were fleeing for their lives. He'd stayed behind to try and essentially cover their tracks, to buy them more time to escape. So him ending up being interrogated was a Bad Thing.

At the trial, the GM decided that the player characters would be the ones to cross-examine my goblin. They, being relatively young and inexperienced, asked a lot of questions vague enough that I could dodge them, implying that my tribe were simply innocent victims of the eruption like everyone else. However, the longer this went on, the more impatient the Elf King and Dwarf King grew... any minute, they'd take over the cross-examination and they would ask questions I couldn't evade. Things were looking bad for my goblin and his tribe.

However, meantime one of the players was growing bored...

"This goblin's clearly guilty. I cast a 5-die lightning bolt at him!"

The GM, surprised, looks over at me, and says "Okay... are you going to dodge?"

I think a second, and say "No."

The wizard made his roll. The goblin went up in a haze of electrical smoke. The entire party of PC's got imprisoned, but the rest of the goblin clan (maybe) got away...

Last edited by Anomylous; 07-04-2019 at 10:31 AM.
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