One-Handed Spear Reach and Reversed Grip

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Sorenant

My understanding is that overarm grip was used like this and if so it seems fair to classify it as reach C.

Interesting video, although one thing what he's calling a reverse grip is actually in GURPS terms a normal grip. I think he's saying reverse from the usual grip, (which itself in GURPS terms would be a reverse grip!)

Anyway as DanHoward says those spears are short so hard to judge reach by. Also you notice that when he swaps grips he doesn't suddenly gain any reach.


However I like that video because it does show how tight a shield wall formation can get. He makes the point about the awkwardness of the GURPS normal grip in terms of range of motion and while it might be slightly better for parrying in theory its less able to resist pressure due to that awkwardness. Also as he says even if you can get you arm high enough to thrust over your shield and past the chap on your right with this grip look at how exposed his armpit is

Originally Posted by Sorenant

The ones behind this wall would use Long Spears and those even behind would use Pikes.

did they mix weapons like that in Phalanxes or hoplite formations?

Originally Posted by Sorenant

I agree that some swords has reaches that seems excessive but I believe those are balanced against their prices. Katana can swing at reach 2 and costs $650, Longsword can thrust at same reach and costs $700, a Spear can only thrust at reach 1 but it costs only $40, you could apply Very Fine (+14 CF), Balanced (+4 CF) and Armor-Piercing (+3 CF) for $880 and get a weapon that deals thr+3(2) damage and gives you +1 skill.

It maybe a game balance thing I guess, and you can always go two handed with the spear I guess. However I do think it's more granularity issues and some categorisation fringe results. Katanas with reach 2 swings must be some long katanas*, while one handed thrust reach 1 spears are rather short spears!



*especially when longswords get Swung at reach 1.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

Many one-handed spears had counter weights on the butt to let you hold it further back. Many were also tapered so that the tip was thinner than the butt, which moved the center of gravity towards the butt, which lets you hold it further back and also makes it more comfortable to use with an overhand grip. Very few re-enactors bother to use tapered spear shafts so they never get an accurate idea of how spears really handle.

Good point! As you say re-enactment and associated activities can cover a range of attention to detail, I can certainly say I've used spears that were more comfortable to use than others despite being the same length.

I guess it's no surprise that balance is a big design factor when fighting one handed with long poles!

Originally Posted by DanHoward

Paul Bardunias's new book squashes that idea pretty thoroughly. He has pulled together enough evidence to be pretty certain that, at least as far as Greek hoplites are concerned, spears were used overhanded. With different shields and different spears and different traditions, the spear might have been used in a shield wall like in that photo, but not in the Aegean.

https://www.amazon.com/Hoplites-War-.../dp/1476666024

Cool, cheers

TD

[Sorenant]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

Many one-handed spears had counter weights on the butt to let you hold it further back. Many were also tapered so that the tip was thinner than the butt, which moved the center of gravity towards the butt, which lets you hold it further back and also makes it more comfortable to use with an overhand grip. Very few re-enactors bother to use tapered spear shafts so they never get an accurate idea of how spears really handle.

Originally Posted by Rasna

IMO the best thing you can do is simply give Reach 1, 2* to the spear even if held in one hand for the underarm grip (and consequently Reach C, 1* for the overarm grip).

Something like treating the weapon as cheap for breakage purpose (thinner shaft at the tip), slightly more weight (counterweight) and reach 1,2* as suggested by Rasna?

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

did they mix weapons like that in Phalanxes or hoplite formations?

Now that you've asked, actually I think they didn't and I'm full of ********. Maybe some did but it doesn't sound good for when the rear soldier has to replace the front one.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Rasna

IMO the best thing you can do is simply give Reach 1, 2* to the spear even if held in one hand for the underarm grip (and consequently Reach C, 1* for the overarm grip). I own a six-feet spear (which fits as GURPS Spear) and a replica of the sword of Fiore de Liberi (which probably fits as GURPS Thrusting Bastard Sword), both blunt for armored full-contact sparring but otherwise identical to their medieval counterparts in weight, length, construction and materials. If you hold the six-feet spear at 3/5 of his shaft length starting from the point, the Reach of the weapon is few centimeters superior than that of the longsword and you can use the weapon perfectly, without suffering for bad bio-mechanics.

Thing is when you hold your spear overarm (so reversed) do you have to have less spear sticking out the front so less reach in order to balance it than when you hold it underarm?

Originally Posted by Sorenant

Something like treating the weapon as cheap for breakage purpose (thinner shaft at the tip), slightly more weight (counterweight) and reach 1,2* as suggested by Rasna?

I wouldn't do the breakage thing for two reasons

1). decent spear shafts are made of tough treated wood that is pretty hard to break (certainly by opposing weapons).

2). the front being thinner than then back is a relative term, i.e it could just be that the rest of the shaft being thicker is even more resistant to breaking than the front. But not that the front although relatively thinner it's therefore so thin as to be cheap/breakable in GURPS terms

Basically they made these things with balance and strength in mind, and don't necessarily have to effectively sacrifice one for the other.

Originally Posted by Sorenant

Now that you've asked, actually I think they didn't and I'm full of ********. Maybe some did but it doesn't sound good for when the rear soldier has to replace the front one.

No worries

[Rasna]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Thing is when you hold your spear overarm (so reversed) do you have to have less spear sticking out the front so less reach in order to balance it than when you hold it underarm?

Yes, and this is considered in the Reach reduction given by Reversed Grip. In overarm grip both arm and weapon can extend forward considerably less than when using the underarm grip. Overarm strikes are more powerful than underarm strikes within the short reach of the weapon, but they lost all their superior power nearly their maximum reach.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

I wouldn't do the breakage thing for two reasons

1). decent spear shafts are made of tough treated wood that is pretty hard to break (certainly by opposing weapons).

2). the front being thinner than then back is a relative term, i.e it could just be that the rest of the shaft being thicker is even more resistant to breaking than the front. But not that the front although relatively thinner it's therefore so thin as to be cheap/breakable in GURPS terms

Basically they made these things with balance and strength in mind, and don't necessarily have to effectively sacrifice one for the other.

I agree.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Rasna

Yes,

Fair enough.

Originally Posted by Rasna

and this is considered in the Reach reduction given by Reversed Grip. In overarm grip both arm and weapon can extend forward considerably less than when using the underarm grip.

Really?, IME it the other way round, especially if I'm having to go up and over a shield with the underarm grip and twist my shoulder

Originally Posted by Rasna

Overarm strikes are more powerful than underarm strikes within the short reach of the weapon, but they lost all their superior power nearly their maximum reach.

I haven't found that as if anything I found the full extension of the over arm style more comfortable (and thus easier to maintain power with) than the underarm one over the shield, and I guess for me the extra reach is till coming from the spear (my experience doesn't match your point above).

Still this is just a matter of personal perspective and experience and not absolute truth, and it may be my experience has just been down to more emphasis on one compared to yours (and hell maybe I just have less shoulder movement than you making the underarm thrust more awkward for me!)

Originally Posted by Rasna

I agree.

cool

anyway always nice to meet another shield wall member

cheers

TD

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by Rasna

Overarm strikes are more powerful than underarm strikes within the short reach of the weapon, but they lost all their superior power nearly their maximum reach.

How much power do you think they need? No one-handed spear thrust can punch through armour and it takes very little effort to penetrate flesh.

[Rasna]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

I haven't found that as if anything I found the full extension of the over arm style more comfortable (and thus easier to maintain power with) than the underarm one over the shield, and I guess for me the extra reach is till coming from the spear (my experience doesn't match your point above).

Still this is just a matter of personal perspective and experience and not absolute truth, and it may be my experience has just been down to more emphasis on one compared to yours (and hell maybe I just have less shoulder movement than you making the underarm thrust more awkward for me!)

Well, IME, holding the same 6-feet spear overarm and underarm, the underarm grip has up to 40-50 cm more reach* than overarm grip and, despite being less powerful, underarm hits retain their power for all the reach of the strike. If you hit with an overarm grip, bio-mechanics grants you a stronger strike for the greater part of your reach, but if your arm is overextended downward (the last centimeters [perhaps 15-20] of the strike's reach) the strike becomes weak and inaccurate. The best solution for increasing overarm reach and to avoid the strike becoming weak is the sliding or retained throw technique. One underestimated advantage of the overarm grip is the possibility to swing forwards with the butt of the spear, hitting with the shaft like a baton.**

* = without sliding; if you slip your grip downward to the end of the shaft, the reach becomes even longer.
** = obviously, only if the spear isn't very long.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

cool

anyway always nice to meet another shield wall member

cheers

TD

Mini an aripa [ame]!
The honor is mine!

-

Originally Posted by DanHoward

How much power do you think they need? No one-handed spear thrust can punch through armour and it takes very little effort to penetrate flesh.

Well, it depends. You know better than me that all the armour isn't the same. Surely no human would have a chance to punch through a XV-XVII century plate harness using a spear one-handed. But if we talk about textile/leather armour or thin metal armour ("light" mail, "light" scale and so on) putting some extra power behind the strike could be useful.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

How much power do you think they need? No one-handed spear thrust can punch through armour and it takes very little effort to penetrate flesh.

It's not just about getting through armour (or rather not getting through armour) and not all things worn count as impenetrable armour that stop all hand held weapons even if they might resist a weak thrust more than a strong one. A more powerful thrust is more damaging, it does actually take some effort to pierce flesh or rather to pierce it as much as you might want. Even if a lot of the work is done by the weapon. Given you've advocated giving human skin DR1 and doubling HP as part of house rules for increasing DR's effects and reducing the effectiveness of melee weapons, is that not part of what you were referring to?



Even before effect on the target if you hit, a harder strike can get past defences better in some cases (subject to still being controlled etc)


Obviously it's a balance, power without control is worthless.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Rasna

Well, IME, holding the same 6-feet spear overarm and underarm, the underarm grip has up to 40-50 cm more reach* than overarm grip and,despite being less powerful, underarm hits retain their power for all the reach of the strike. If you hit with an overarm grip, bio-mechanics grants you a stronger strike for the greater part of your reach, but if your arm is overextended downward (the last centimeters [perhaps 15-20] of the strike's reach) the strike becomes weak and inaccurate. The best solution for increasing overarm reach and to avoid the strike becoming weak is the sliding or retained throw technique. One underestimated advantage of the overarm grip is the possibility to swing forwards with the butt of the spear, hitting with the shaft like a baton.**

* = without sliding; if you slip your grip downward to the end of the shaft, the reach becomes even longer.
** = obviously, only if the spear isn't very long.

I guess I'm just not picturing how you getting so much more reach with the underarm thrust in a shield wall. But just because I'm not "seeing" it doesn't mean it's not happening of course!
I'm guessing not all that 40-50cm is from holding a 180cm spear further back.
I can see how just by itself a under arm thrust extends more than an overarm one. You lose some reach as at full forward extension with the overarm you have to angle your arm and spear to keep it pointing forward, and as you say that's awkward and you lose power and control.
It's just short of dropping your shield to allow it room I'm not seeing how you fully extend an under arm thrust forward. Keeping the shield up would limit the forward thrust by also forcing it to have to angle itself and bend the arm.

Also then again my experience is with longer spears mainly, that might be a factor (also our respective shield may also differ).

I'll be honest I don't have much experience with the sliding attack (it's harder to do with overarm, so that may well be an advantage that underarm has that I'm not fully factoring in)

Originally Posted by Rasna

Mini an aripa [ame]!
The honor is mine!

Cheers

TD