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Old 08-09-2015, 05:31 PM   #1
callen
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Default Armed Grapple with Reach Weapons

I know about the Ready to use a 1-H weapon for Armed Grapple. But how about this case? You have a pole arm in reach-2 grip. Can you do Armed Grapple without going to reach-1 grip? It seems really odd if you can because you'll have a significant amount of weight with a significant amount of leverage off to one side unless you make some effort to move toward the center of the weapon, which would be closer to where you are with a reach-1 grip. But it looks like this is fine in GURPS MA.

Thanks
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Old 08-13-2015, 03:23 AM   #2
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: Armed Grapple with Reach Weapons

Quote:
Originally Posted by callen View Post
I know about the Ready to use a 1-H weapon for Armed Grapple. But how about this case? You have a pole arm in reach-2 grip. Can you do Armed Grapple without going to reach-1 grip? It seems really odd if you can because you'll have a significant amount of weight with a significant amount of leverage off to one side unless you make some effort to move toward the center of the weapon, which would be closer to where you are with a reach-1 grip. But it looks like this is fine in GURPS MA.

Thanks

Going with MA and MA: Technical Grappling, you can grapple at range (i.e. reach greater than 1) with weapons that can hook, using hook technique to improve it (it's pretty hard defaulting to -5). TG give more detail and ties it into the CP system making it basically a ranged armed grapple with CP gained and all the rest. Bladed hooks being double trouble.

Last edited by Tomsdad; 08-13-2015 at 08:11 AM.
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Old 08-13-2015, 05:28 AM   #3
Landwalker
 
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Default Re: Armed Grapple with Reach Weapons

The Ready maneuver to use a one-handed weapon for an Armed Grapple isn't an issue of Reach, it's an issue of "You need both hands in order to grapple." A two-handed weapon already has both hands in play, and does not require a Ready maneuver in order to "prepare" it for Armed Grappling.

While it doesn't directly address your question, you might look at the Exception paragraph under Long Weapons in Close Combat on MA.117:
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Book
Pummeling, grappling techniques (Armed Grapple, Bind Weapon, Choke Hold, etc.), and similar close combat-specific moves don't suffer skill or damage penalties in close combat...
Which strongly implies that, in matters of Armed Grappling, the reach of a weapon immediately preceding the grapple attempt is irrelevant, as long as it is already held in both hands.

Or, to tackle this from yet another direction, consider a Reach 2,3* polearm like a full-sized Bill. That weapon can't get down to Reach 1 (without some other grip-related shenanigans, at least). But it can certainly still execute an Armed Grapple.

Basically, these are all indirect and rambling ways of saying "You are correct, per Martial Arts it is perfectly fine to execute an Armed Grapple with a long-handled two-handed weapon held in a longer Reach position without having to first execute a Ready maneuver (or other grip change) to "shift" into a wider, shorter grip.
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Old 08-13-2015, 06:54 AM   #4
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Default Re: Armed Grapple with Reach Weapons

The GM, however, is within his rights to say that you can't turn your 3 yard Bill sideways for an Armed Grapple Choke Hold in a 1 yard corridor :D
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Old 08-18-2015, 07:24 AM   #5
callen
 
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Default Re: Armed Grapple with Reach Weapons

Tomsdad, those would be Entangle or Hook.

Landwalker, thanks. At least we have confirmation we've read things right. Unfortunate, though. GURPS usually addresses such things well. Maybe it was an oversight and needs an item added to the errata? After all, the rules say you're more prepared to use your weapon to grapple someone right in front of you if you're holding a 20-ft pike from near its end than if you have a billy club in one hand and the other hand free, which is blatantly ridiculous.
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Old 08-18-2015, 10:10 AM   #6
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Default Re: Armed Grapple with Reach Weapons

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Originally Posted by callen View Post
Tomsdad, those would be Entangle or Hook.

Landwalker, thanks. At least we have confirmation we've read things right. Unfortunate, though. GURPS usually addresses such things well. Maybe it was an oversight and needs an item added to the errata? After all, the rules say you're more prepared to use your weapon to grapple someone right in front of you if you're holding a 20-ft pike from near its end than if you have a billy club in one hand and the other hand free, which is blatantly ridiculous.
It does seem to be one of those rules quirks that doesn't always make a lot of sense on the surface, I'd agree. As someone who isn't well-versed in low-tech combat, I have a hard time envisioning what it necessarily represents with a given type of weapon, so I wouldn't be able to intelligently evaluate it and propose a good alternative. For someone with that kind of experience, the RAW might make perfect sense, or it might be perfectly ludicrous—I have no idea. For someone like me, though, it ends up just looking at it and saying "Huh, that's kind of odd" and then plowing ahead with the RAW because that's all I know (and all I can know).
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Old 08-18-2015, 04:16 PM   #7
DouglasCole
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Default Re: Armed Grapple with Reach Weapons

If it bugs you too much, look at the total length of the weapon, knock it down by a yard (for humans) and give only a penalty to the longest bit sticking out. So -4 to skill (with all that implies) per yard of protruding weapon beyond the first.

So: take a 2-yard weapon held at reach 2. That protrudes 1 yard past your own hex, so takes a -4 penalty. If gripped in a defensive grip, you occupy the middle yard of the weapon, and it only protrudes a half-yard in either direction, for -2 to skill due to awkwardness.

A 4-yard pike used to grapple as a pike would be at -12 to skill. With defensive grip, it still sticks out 1.5 yards in either direction, for -6 to grapple.

As a rule of thumb for humans, if you're below -1 penalty, ignore it. -1 is 0.25 yards more than the main hex, or 1.25 yards (45") if held by the end like a sword or very, very short spear. With defensive grip, you get 1.5 yards for that, or about 54".

That means you can basically grapple with a jo or shorter at no penalty, or at most (if you're using it with broadsword skill) -2.

Edit: this is for Armed Grapple, which is grappling with a weapon in close combat. Grappling at reach 1 can be done with AoA(Long) or Committed Attack (Long) using Armed Grapple. It may be done at the appropriate reach for the weapon using a hooking weapon.
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Last edited by DouglasCole; 08-19-2015 at 07:07 AM.
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Old 08-19-2015, 12:28 AM   #8
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: Armed Grapple with Reach Weapons

Quote:
Originally Posted by callen View Post
Tomsdad, those would be Entangle or Hook.
....
Yes that right both being armed grappling? That's what grappling with a long weapon looks like when you hold that weapon in a way that maintains it's reach allowing you to grapple at range.

Maybe I'm not understanding your question, but you seemed to be asking how do you grapple at reach with a long weapon?

Don't forget that armed grappling is already at -2 to skill at default. But yes sorry if your talking about doing this in close combat just remove the exception given on pg117 for armed grappling in the "using long weapons in close combat" rules if you like. (although maybe have the penalty replace the default -2 rather than combining with it, damage you don't need to worry about)

TBH I've forgotten that exception was in there, which is why I was a bit puzzled by the question ;-) !

Last edited by Tomsdad; 08-19-2015 at 04:42 AM.
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