Weapon skills, what I would change with GURPS

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

I'd merge Staff and Spear into one skill and then just use techniques if you want more detail. I'd also merge Shortsword and Broadsword.

Yep, have One-Handed Sword and Two-Handed Sword, no separate Skills for Fencing. Fencing would be made up of advanced techniques and minor Ads for One-Handed Sword. Enhanced Parry wouldn't be Cinematic for Fencing weapons.

[Polydamas]

I would be reluctant to make skills more specialized, because I think GURPS already penalizes warriors with realistically versatile skills. Its very expensive to be skilled with say Broadsword, Two-Handed Sword, Spear, Lance, Polearm, Riding, Knife, one grappling skill, and one striking skill like a minimally trained 15th century man-at-arms (a well trained one has half a dozen other combat skills). If I did add more skills, I would add more defaults at the same time. Weapon skills are already about the most realistically specialized ones in the whole system (one skill covers raising all crops and livestock known in your culture, for crying out loud!)

I think the difference between a 3' stick and a 3' sword can largely be handled by familiarity penalties, and possibly special rules to make the two weapons play differently. Wooden practice versions of steel weapons especially make a different skill hard to justify.

No idea about Mace vs. Axe and I don't know of any documented systems which teach Combat versions of either except for medieval Iranian ones. I suspect that they are at least as different as Broadsword and Shortsword so different skills are probably realistic.

I have no objection to Spear (One-Handed) (E) and Spear (Two-Handed) (E) as optional specialties. Lance skill could probably be absorbed into Spear (possibly as a technique), since canonically its only for couched use, and couching is a technique which you can use on foot or on horseback and one-handed or two-handed.

No objection to combining some of the fencing sword skills. I agree that stickfighting should not use the same skill as smallsword fencing. Since there was a lot of debate historically about what the perfect length of a sword was, I'm not sure if I'd use George Silver's opinion as the basis of a rule. But its your house rule.

The Staff/Spear distinction, and the sword skill/fencing skill distinctions don't make perfect sense to me right now. In particular, I definitely think you should be able to thrust for impaling damage with Staff. A thrust is a thrust, and lots of medieval staves had pointy iron ends.

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by Dangerious P. Cats

Have more specialisation in skills. Using a bladed weapon and a blunt (typically rounded weapon) is slightly different, for that reason I would suggest having specialisations for your sword skills that are used for sticky weapons as well, have a specialisation that defaults at -2 to one another. Likewise i think that Axe/Mac and two handed axe/mace should be split between axe and mace skills with a -2 default between each other.

This part I disagree with. The differences are very minor. I'd say that switching from dull to bladed weapons might take a familiarity, since you now have to worry about which way your edge is facing, but that switching from edged to blunt should be at no penalty whatsoever. Why couldn't I swing a mace exactly like I swing an axe?

Originally Posted by Dangerious P. Cats

Merge Smallsword and Rapier skills into one skill (which I'm calling duelling sword) and then give them specialisations for weapons of above perfect length (like rapiers) and weapons of perfect length or below (like smallswords or jins). The two can default for one another at between -2 and -4, I want to play smallsword some more before I make a more definative assessment.

Give all the fencing weapon sticks to sabre skill.

These I agree with. I've already ported all stick fighting to Saber in my own campaigns.
[EDIT] Although, I've also moved the Jinn over to Saber for the same reason: it prioritizes swings over thrusts.

Originally Posted by Dangerious P. Cats

Split spear skill into one handed and two handed spear (both should be easy skills) and introduce specialisation for weapons like Bayonets which use similar or the same motions, but have different weight and balance.

Very interesting, I could be on board with this change.

I've also been toying around with eliminating the Staff skill in my campaigns by making the following changes:
Spear has a swing/crushing line on the weapon table and Pole weapons gain an additional +1 to Parry (total of +2 for attacks from the front) when held in a defensive grip, but defensive grip bonuses to not apply when parrying attacks aimed at the hands.

Staff users use either Spear or Two-Handed Sword, and it does away with all of that nonsense of Staff being defensively superior to the spear, or Staff users suddenly forgetting how to thrust if there's a point at the end of their Staff.

[Polydamas]

The one thing with giving Spear weapons a sw cr damage rating is that a lot of spear shafts are quite thin near the pointy end, so they don't hit as hard and may break. Maybe a 1/6 chance of breaking on any hit? I think staves are often more heavily built than spears because they have to stand up to more abuse.

Your point that the Staff grip/Spear grip difference may be mostly Defensive Grip vs. regular grip is a good one.

[nanoboy]

In addition to consolidating the skills, I also favor the use of weapons talents to encourage characters to cross-train. The specialist is the way to go almost all the time without something to make the other skills more tempting.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

I'd merge Staff and Spear into one skill and then just use techniques if you want more detail. I'd also merge Shortsword and Broadsword.

I've been thinking for a while that what with the expansions in Martial Arts, a lot of the weapon skills in Basic should be handled differently. In particular, if two weapon skills have a generous default, they might well be a single weapon skill with familiarity with various subtypes treated as a perk along the same lines as Weapon Adaptation or Exotic Weapon Training.

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

a lot of spear shafts are quite thin near the pointy end, so they don't hit as hard and may break.

I haven't found this to be the case at all. In fact, many spears are re-enforced towards the end with iron bands.

Doesn't matter anyway, that would be a function of the weapon description, it has no effect on which skill is used.

[Barghaest]

I'd keep spear and staff separate as it is different modes of use... I see Spear as wielding it with a point facing the opponent and primarily doing jabs but the occassional swing.

Staff is more the quarterstaff grip to me... holding it across your body instead of pointed towards the opponent and swinging with the ends towards the opponent. It's the opposite of the spear grip... suited more towards swinging than thrusting.

As for spears being weak towards the head - only the cheap ones... most were reinforced with metal sheathes at the ends to help keep the point attached.

As for thrusting with a staff for impaling damage, you can... combination weapons in MA includes adding hooks/points/chains/blades to weapons... want a metal spike on the end on your quarterstaff, you can add it.

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by Barghaest

Staff is more the quarterstaff grip to me... holding it across your body instead of pointed towards the opponent and swinging with the ends towards the opponent. It's the opposite of the spear grip... suited more towards swinging than thrusting.

Okay, so how is the quarterstaff grip (held across the body), different from Spear or Two-Handed Sword in a defensive grip. In both cases the weapon is held across the body with the hands fairly wide. And if a Staff is always in this grip, why is it's reach as long as a spears?

It just doesn't track for me. The quarterstaff grip and a two-handed weapon Defensive Grip are identical in every way except the mechanics.

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by Barghaest

As for thrusting with a staff for impaling damage, you can... combination weapons in MA includes adding hooks/points/chains/blades to weapons... want a metal spike on the end on your quarterstaff, you can add it.

The fact that a "quarterstaff with a spike on one end" is functionally superior to a "spear" in every way is ridiculous on the face of it.
If you have a "spear" you are either -2 to attack (using Staff at default) or -2 to parry (using Spear) when compared to a "Staff with a Spike". But how can you tell when something is a spear and something is a pointy staff? It breaks my suspension of disbelief into pieces.

I've trained in the spear and staff in Hsing-I and Bajiquan. I can tell you, we swing spears plenty, and they are very effective for parrying. Am I using Staff skill with Staffs with a point on them?
Every technique for using a spear and using a staff are completely interchangeable in both of those styles.