Appearance and Opposite-Gender Disguises

[Dusqune]

If you have your typical Mulan character who is disguised as the opposite gender, how do you handle their attractiveness? Now, I don't really mean if they are disguised as a specific person, but rather, they are just disguising their gender. I can see this playing out one of three basic ways:

1) Attractiveness is untouched. A female character disguised as a male character is still treated as female for the purposes of attractiveness.

2) Attractiveness is swapped with the disguise. A female character disguised as a male character is male for the purposes of attractiveness. *Cough*twelfthnight*cougH*

3) Attractiveness is transferred to a baseline or otherwise lost. A female character disguised as a male character would get the equivalent androgynous bonus from everyone / would get no bonus / somesuch.

On top of these, I imagine the more attractive you are, the harder it would be to disguise yourself. A woman with very attractive features would have to, well, change that to pass off as a man... which actually points back to a variant of 3, perhaps. (Sorry all my examples are female disguised as male, but... the examples come out easier that way, and that's what I'm working with anyways.)

So, what are the rules here? Is attractiveness modified in any way when disguised and does it provide a penalty to the disguise? In fact, what is the baseline penalty for disguising as the opposite gender?

(And a slightly-off-topic-but-related-query: Can you use disguise to improve your appearance? Yes, it's cheaper to just buy up appearance, but...)

[Faolyn]

I think that, with appropriate levels of the skills Disguise, Acting, and Makeup, you can probably make yourself look like a fairly attractive or unattractive member of the opposite sex, however you wanted. Although I'd add the caveats that if your appearance is too low (Hideous and lower), no levels in those skills would help since probably your features are shaped weirdly either (without super science or magic, of course), and that, depending on how much makeup you have to put on, you may head for the uncanny valley.

On the other hand, if your entire disguise involves cutting your hair, binding your breasts, and wearing pants, or wearing a padded bra and putting on a wig and some lipstick, then probably your attractiveness levels would probably stay roughly the same. Although I might say that a guy putting on a hasty disguise to look like a woman probably wouldn't look as good as a woman hastily disguised as a guy.

[LemmingLord]

In general I would use this rule of thumb: unattractiveness carries over; attractive doesn't. Does bring up an interesting perk possibility though:

For a character with unnatractive:
(1) Other Gender Feature (male breasts, female broad shoulders, etc): you have a feature (or features) that typify a different gender than your own in the campaign's predominant culture. This is part of the reason why your character is unnattractive normally. You are at no penalty to disguise yourself as a member of the opposite sex (though disguising yourself as a specific member of the opposite sex will have its own penalties). With a good disguise roll the gamemaster may waive your unnatractiveness penalty when your disguise turns your features into assets. You are also likely to be more comfortable dressing in clothes made for the other gender.

[Xplo]

That's a tough call. Men and women's facial features aren't necessarily that different; someone who's good-looking as a man might make a good-looking woman (and vice-versa); someone who has clear skin, pleasing facial proportions, and strong symmetry ought to still get a bonus. But some "manly men" in our society can be considered handsome even though they'd make ugly women, and many beautiful women would make unusually girly-looking men (especially if they're also petite). And of course you run into issues with musculature and secondary sexual characteristics and such; someone with a killer hourglass figure isn't going to get any benefit from it as a man since they would just have to hide it.

Anyway, you're looking for a generic ruling, right? So I'd say keep the smaller of your gender-specific bonuses and apply that to both genders. (This is one case where having androgynous Attractiveness really pays off.) But the GM should probably note any character description indicating strongly gendered looks, or certain appearance perks, and reduce the bonus if in his opinion the character's appearance couldn't gender-swap gracefully.

I wouldn't assess a penalty to disguise yourself as the opposite gender, as long as appropriate clothing, padding, wigs etc. are available.

IIRC, using makeup and appropriate skills to improve your appearance by one level is in the RAW somewhere.

[Aneirin]

You can just keep attractiveness as the same, but when disguised you put on the androgynous bit to amend them (i.e., attractive woman who dresses to looks like a man is now attractive androgynous and only gets a flat bonus)

I wouldn't have it increase attractiveness. Maybe a +1 bonus (like you get from fashion sense) if you roll a crit.

[Anthony]

This depends somewhat on cultural norms, but typically standards of beauty emphasize gender-specific traits -- having broad shoulders, bulging biceps, and six-pack abs likely won't help you look like a beautiful woman, and a 36-24-36 figure is unlikely to help you look like a handsome man. As such, I'd say that appearance bonuses beyond +1 (which can usually be achieved from simple good health) are lost.

[Dusqune]

Originally Posted by Xplo

Anyway, you're looking for a generic ruling, right? So I'd say keep the smaller of your gender-specific bonuses and apply that to both genders. (This is one case where having androgynous Attractiveness really pays off.) But the GM should probably note any character description indicating strongly gendered looks, or certain appearance perks, and reduce the bonus if in his opinion the character's appearance couldn't gender-swap gracefully.

Yeah, I was looking for a generic ruling. But if you want the specific case... agian, think Mulan (or Twelfth Night). We're talking long-term crossdressing as yourself (or brother or however you spin it) just with the other gender. We know that this is what the case is as we make the character, so I want to know what the appearance options are: i.e., if they decide they want to run a very beautiful character, I don't want to say, "Oh, btw, that doesn't count while crossdressing which is 90% of this campaign." I do want to give them the option to be attractive.

I suppose androgynous would be the clean-cut answer, here. I hadn't thought of making a perk to allow for crossdressing attractiveness, which I might... Would you think it balanced to give full equivalent androgynous bonuses while crossdressing as a perk? I do think that explains how (in popular culture, of course) crossdressing characters tend to end up with absolutely everyone finding them attractive... assuming they pull it off.

I really like your idea of the lower gender-specific bonus applying. That gives the impression of a penalty to the crossdressing while giving a bonus for buying up attractiveness. I think I'll use that for the generic rule.

By the way, what would you give Cillian Murphy? He makes a surprisingly attractive she. Androgynous? X lvl of attractive + perk? Or just epic lvls of (whomever did costuming, etc.)'s disguise skill going on?

[Xplo]

Originally Posted by Dusqune

We're talking long-term crossdressing as yourself (or brother or however you spin it) just with the other gender. We know that this is what the case is as we make the character...

I suppose androgynous would be the clean-cut answer, here.

I'd say so, yep.

Would you think it balanced to give full equivalent androgynous bonuses while crossdressing as a perk? I do think that explains how (in popular culture, of course) crossdressing characters tend to end up with absolutely everyone finding them attractive... assuming they pull it off.

I can't say I've noticed a trope where someone suddenly becomes more attractive to both genders when they crossdress. If you want everyone to find you attractive, buy up appearance with the androgynous option.

What I could see allowing - only in cinematic games! - is a perk that lets you switch your appearance gender while crossdressing.

By the way, what would you give Cillian Murphy? He makes a surprisingly attractive she. Androgynous? X lvl of attractive + perk? Or just epic lvls of (whomever did costuming, etc.)'s disguise skill going on?

Based on the image on that page, and the picture of him on his own page (if you click on the first image), I'd guess Attractive with the androgynous option, and a competent makeup artist to girl him up.

[Flyndaran]

Priscilla, queen of the desert shows what real drag queens look like when not at their best make-up wise.

Also, I'm not a fan of androgynous modifiers. Most adults are not attracted to androgynous people. Even most bisexuals prefer men that look like men, and women that look like women. Secondary sex characteristics aren't just random features that appeared out of nowhere.

Edit: I am not describing my personal aesthetics. As with most things, I'm not in the normal part of the curve.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Also, I'm not a fan of androgynous modifiers. Most adults are not attracted to androgynous people. Even most bisexuals prefer men that look like men, and women that look like women. Secondary sex characteristics aren't just random features that appeared out of nowhere.

Edit: I am not describing my personal aesthetics. As with most things, I'm not in the normal part of the curve.

I'm not even sure GURPS Androgynous means the same thing as in the real world. Literally, it means the sort of appearance that gives equal bonuses against people attracted to either sex. That does not necessarily mean that the character has a bishounen look in 4e (unlike the specific case in GURPS Mecha for GURPS 3e, whence the modifier originated). And speaking of bishounen, the very fact that this image is so popular seems to indicate that the stereotype about androgynous looks being 'unmanly' is unfounded.