Really big fights with humanoid monsters in DF

[Anthony]

Typically, practically tracking mook hit points requires numbered mooks, or requires a token that can be directly tied to the mook without too much effort (for example, using dice as counters).

[lachimba]

Originally Posted by Gnome

As for removing HP and HT as a distinguishing features for mooks, I have two responses:
1) Who cares? They're NPCs with plenty of other stats to distinguish them.
2) HT is still used to resist spells, poisons, afflictions, etc. HP is still used to calculate slam damage. And if you have an enemy whose high HP you want to showcase--call it a worthy! But since fighting 50 enemies, each with loads of HP, is likely going to be a boring slog, maybe mix it up and include some mooks too...

1 clearly I do, have you read this thread? There are plenty of other comments from people who care. Dungeon Fantastic also has a system that has fodder die at 0HP so there are others who think HP should matter.


2. Afflictions are another thing rendered almost useless if 1HP damage= death.

[corwyn]

Originally Posted by lachimba

Anything that changes GURPS assumptions will have consequences.


(It also almost removes HT (or HP) as a point of differentiation for your mooks.)

I actually considered that last night after I posted. I'm thinking for my test I should roll against HP to differentiate things like orcs and scrub humans who may have the same DR but vastly different HP. HT is still useful for other effects on occasion. Plus, a HT roll could determine how many are still alive at the end (for interrogation, for escapees).

There might be a few at HT 10 that survive 6 or 7HP of damage, but I'll steal from elsewhere and say just make the mook a worthy if they make a roll like that! Repeated 4 HP of damage that doesn't lead to death might be annoying too and warrant some consideration.

From back in our Champions days, we call that "having an Origin".

[Skarg]

The fodder/mook 1HP optional rule seems like a crutch rule/guideline or GM idea.

I would suggest a perspective that I think can have a similar and better effect that also improves other things, which is to remember to always roleplay NPCs in combat as if they were actual humans in the situation. Many NPCs in situations where someone might think of them as fodder/mook would, I would think tend to:

* Care about their own survival, and not act as pawns who will constantly rush and attack.

* Not entirely know what's going on and be taking efficient action every turn. In a large group, even more than in smaller combat situations, most people may be just waiting, watching and standing around most of the time, or moving or taking cover.

* When injured for even a few points of damage, tend to fall, crawl, flee, cower, stop fighting, etc. This is what most people actually do for at least several seconds (or minutes) after being wounded, unless they are needing to fight to save their lives and/or are being heroic. GURPS allows for the possibility of doing otherwise, but that doesn't mean everyone would do that, especially not in typical situations where they would be called a mook/fodder.

Another thing I have done for large group combats is figure out if many of them can be generalized into typical types, and run some stats on how likely they are to injure each other when facing other types. Then I translate that to single-die odds (often using 1d12 or 1d20 rather than 3d6, so it's faster). Then I can resolve combat between two minor NPCs with a single die roll, and suddenly large combats can become pretty fast.

[mhd]

Originally Posted by Rasputin

Trust me, having mooks drop at 0 HP isn't losing much.

It's also not gaining much (one, two rolls or table lookups?), so for me it's not messing with some core RPG ideals. It might be somewhat appopriate in a white box DF type of campaign, but I don't really want to switch around too many rules for different GURPS campaigns, restraining myself mostly to the character point axis.

Never mind that even one second more or less is an element of unpredictability (if it still doesn't matter at all because of the skill difference, I'm wondering why they're in play at all).

[Tomsdad]

I tend to do it with the usual rules, but most non fanatical opponents won't fight past their first serious wound.


However since I tend to do low level more gritty stuff, a typical encounter between the PC party and 20+ armed opponents will generally be the PC looking to either get the hell out of there full stop or to a situation that favours them so the combat doesn't need me trying track 20+ opponents at the same time anyway.

[mhd]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

I tend to do it with the usual rules, but most non fanatical opponents won't fight past their first serious wound.

That's a very good point, and I admit that I often forget to do this in the heat of battle, when it's all hit points, shock modifiers and maneuvers. Maybe writing a dedicated "morale check" numbers on my NPC sheet would be a good way to connect right and left brain here...

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by mhd

That's a very good point, and I admit that I often forget to do this in the heat of battle, when it's all hit points, shock modifiers and maneuvers. Maybe writing a dedicated "morale check" numbers on my NPC sheet would be a good way to connect right and left brain here...

I use 10+BAD, but's just me.

[EDIT]
Okay it's a bit more complex than that, but not by much.
Other modifiers:
-1 for forces below 3/4 strength, -2 below half.
-4 if their center of gravity is gone or compromised (leader died, their families have successfully escaped, etc).
+4 if their on a killing ground.
+1 if they have "personal reasons" to keep fighting.

That's about all I've really 'codified', but other modifiers can (and have) come up.
[/quote]

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by mhd

That's a very good point, and I admit that I often forget to do this in the heat of battle, when it's all hit points, shock modifiers and maneuvers. Maybe writing a dedicated "morale check" numbers on my NPC sheet would be a good way to connect right and left brain here...

It can lead to some opportunities for the PC's as well on top of just having one less attacker swing at them.

It can disorder the enemy as well, for example some one who just take a big hit decides enough's enough, they might deicide to retreat through their own chaps, maybe getting in the way a bit. If your opponents have any camaraderie some of them might actually stop concentrating on you in order to get their wounded comrade out of the immediate vicinity.

(there is of course limits to this second one)


I should say my current campaign is a slightly fantastical C11th, so tend to involve human fighting humans, so some of the above is going to me more universal for me than for other campaigns.

But eitherway the general point is psychology is often a huge factor in combat.

Originally Posted by evileeyore

I use 10+BAD, but's just me.

[EDIT]
Okay it's a bit more complex than that, but not by much.
Other modifiers:
-1 for forces below 3/4 strength, -2 below half.
-4 if their center of gravity is gone or compromised (leader died, their families have successfully escaped, etc).
+4 if their on a killing ground.
+1 if they have "personal reasons" to keep fighting.

That's about all I've really 'codified', but other modifiers can (and have) come up

I like it! (especially the centre of gravity one)

[Mr_Sandman]

Originally Posted by mhd

Whenever I use that many NPCs, I'll make a complete list, with each one getting their own line, with a few pre-rolled HT checks for each one.

I like this pre-rolled HT check idea. Before my next game, for each mook, I'm going to pre-roll a line of HT checks until I come up with a couple of failures. Then it's just a matter of ticking them down as needed. I'd go past the first failure, in case there's a potential stun, knockdown, or other situation that might not take the mook completely out of the fight. A mook that misses two HT checks and isn't dead or unconscious will run away, surrender, or play dead.

You could also combine this with the 'HT roll to survive' idea for mooks. Instead of rolling at the time, roll ahead and tick them off until you get to the failed roll.