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Old 08-07-2018, 09:13 PM   #1
tanksoldier
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Default TL-10 gear manufactured by TL-12 factories

ETA: there are several factors besides price. Speed of production is important as is the ability to train people from lower TLs to use the equipment.

Can TL-10 gear be produced faster than TL-12 gear?
Can people be trained faster on gear that is closer to their native TL?

One of the worlds is TL-6 so they probably will have to mostly be defended by outsiders, but training residents of TL-8 and 9 worlds to use TL-10 equipment shouldn’t be too hard.


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I know there’s a blurb about this so where in the rules, but I can’t find it.

What is the economic impact of a TL-12 manufacturing capability choosing to build something to TL-10 specs?

Specifically, my group is playing the Pirates of Drinax campaign from GooseTraveller but using GURPS rules. They’ve gotten a industrial TL-12 planet to join the kingdom and want it to provide planetside and orbital defenses, but believe TL-10 would be “good enough” given the most likely threats IF there is an economic savings to doing so.

It seems like the savings should be substantial.

Thoughts?

Last edited by tanksoldier; 08-08-2018 at 08:15 PM.
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Old 08-08-2018, 11:16 AM   #2
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: TL-10 gear manufactured by TL-12 factories

Quote:
Originally Posted by tanksoldier View Post
I know there’s a blurb about this so where in the rules, but I can’t find it.

What is the economic impact of a TL-12 manufacturing capability choosing to build something to TL-10 specs?
?
This may be discussed in Far Trader.
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Old 08-08-2018, 01:06 PM   #3
tanksoldier
 
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Default Re: TL-10 gear manufactured by TL-12 factories

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
This may be discussed in Far Trader.
I’ve occasionally wondered about it in the past, aside from the current reason, because I suspect a TL-12 world could manufacture lower tech goods and undercut factories manufacturering at that TL even given the cost of shipping the goods in.

ATL-12 world could also manufacture TL-8 goods and sell them on a TL-6 planet... the TL-6 world would never be incentivized to increase its own manufacturing TL if higher TL goods are easily available.

...and the goods would probably be better quality since they would be built at the “fully mature” level of that TL. For example, replica TL-5 firearms that are built at TL-8 are generally much better than the originals.

Last edited by tanksoldier; 08-08-2018 at 01:09 PM.
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Old 08-08-2018, 04:29 PM   #4
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Default Re: TL-10 gear manufactured by TL-12 factories

Quote:
Originally Posted by tanksoldier View Post
I know there’s a blurb about this so where in the rules, but I can’t find it.

What is the economic impact of a TL-12 manufacturing capability choosing to build something to TL-10 specs?

Specifically, my group is playing the Pirates of Drinax campaign from GooseTraveller but using GURPS rules. They’ve gotten a industrial TL-12 planet to join the kingdom and want it to provide planetside and orbital defenses, but believe TL-10 would be “good enough” given the most likely threats IF there is an economic savings to doing so.

It seems like the savings should be substantial.

Thoughts?
Classic Traveller - in a JTAS article, in Striker, and in A5: TCS - The prices are all in "local credits" - 1 Cr Imp = TL15 A starport. Yu pay CrLocal for goods, not CrImperial.
The value is CrL 1-((15-TL)/10)-(0.05 per Port level worse than A) for TL's 8-15. Below that, the table isn't the same formula.
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Old 08-08-2018, 08:10 PM   #5
tanksoldier
 
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Default Re: TL-10 gear manufactured by TL-12 factories

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Originally Posted by ak_aramis View Post
Classic Traveller - in a JTAS article, in Striker, and in A5: TCS - The prices are all in "local credits" - 1 Cr Imp = TL15 A starport. Yu pay CrLocal for goods, not CrImperial.
The value is CrL 1-((15-TL)/10)-(0.05 per Port level worse than A) for TL's 8-15. Below that, the table isn't the same formula.
That’s good for prices but I’m wondering about speed and efficiency as well.

Part of the problem is needing to equip system defenses relatively quickly. Would a TL-12 world produce TL-10 goods faster than it would equivalent TL-12 gear?

Also training is a factor. Training people from a TL-8 or 9 world to use TL-10 equipment is faster than TL-12 gear.
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Old 08-09-2018, 01:42 AM   #6
SteveS
 
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Default Re: TL-10 gear manufactured by TL-12 factories

Funny, when I looked at my Far Trader PDF, it opened to the exact page I needed: page 18 (and 19), in the sidebar titled "Technology, productivity, and exchange rates". There's more about the same subject a few pages earlier (15 and 16): "Standards of living", which my similar, two-legged stringshows similar
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Old 08-09-2018, 07:33 AM   #7
Anaraxes
 
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Default Re: TL-10 gear manufactured by TL-12 factories

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Originally Posted by tanksoldier View Post
A TL-12 world could also manufacture TL-8 goods and sell them on a TL-6 planet... the TL-6 world would never be incentivized to increase its own manufacturing
While intuitively appealing, that's actually not the case. Economists call it "comparative advantage". As long as either of the two trading partners have different relative productive costs even in their own local economies (never mind the other partner), it's more efficient for each to specialize. There's more total stuff produced per unit of cost in the two-planet network.

There's also the point that if the TL6 planet produces nothing, it has nothing to trade, and thus it doesn't matter how much more cheaply the TL12 planet can sell things. They buy zero goods if they produce zero goods. So the TL6 planet has to produce something to be able to import at all. (Or you could look at it as the cost of the TL12 goods being increased by the cost of all that idle labor on the TL6 world. The TL12 planet has to pay to run their charity.)

Once you admit governments into the picture, then you also have scenarios like development economics, where the TL6 planet is legally sheltering its local industry until it can develop to be competitive, or Keynesian economics, where the government is supposed to spend money to smooth out dips in volatile aggregate demand -- but it doesn't matter (to Keynes) what the government spends it on; any government spending is equally good for adding to aggregate demand. So they might well choose to invest in local industry development. There are reasons why people will choose to "buy local" even if that means higher prices -- which of course even includes purely political / ideological / sentimental reasons.

Hm, Traveller and economics. I sense Agemegos ready to swoop in from the wings :)
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Old 08-09-2018, 11:41 AM   #8
SteveS
 
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Default Re: TL-10 gear manufactured by TL-12 factories

For a real world example of a government intervention in economics, I heard on NPR that Uganda banned the importation of second-hand clothing, because the local textile industry can't hope to compete with the price of clothing that wealthy countries' thrift stores can't sell; except for the cost of shipping, it arrives for free. With the ban, local textile makers still have to compete with imports of new products, but at least they don't have to compete with free stuff.
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Old 08-09-2018, 01:31 PM   #9
tanksoldier
 
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Default Re: TL-10 gear manufactured by TL-12 factories

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Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
Hm, Traveller and economics. I sense Agemegos ready to swoop in from the wings :)
In this case the specific TL-6 world is a sparsely populated agrarian world. So they are selling food and importing advanced farming equipment. What industry they do have is becoming focused on producing TL-6 stuff for local consumption like farm trucks.

I suspect that in order to be successful a TL-6 industrial world would have to specialize in things were TL doesn’t matter much. Refining basic raw materials and the like.

Quote:
There's also the point that if the TL6 planet produces nothing, it has nothing to trade, and thus it doesn't matter how much more cheaply the TL12 planet can sell things.
Real world examples exist in Eastern Europe of former (still TL-7) industrial areas which were unable to compete with western (TL-8) industry once trade was opened. Those factories aren’t plodding along with their lower tech products and less efficient processes, they are closed.

I suspect that worlds WOULD specialize, but a lower tech world would get away from manufacturing entirely and focus on something else.

Last edited by tanksoldier; 08-09-2018 at 01:39 PM.
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Old 08-09-2018, 10:31 PM   #10
jeff_wilson
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Default Re: TL-10 gear manufactured by TL-12 factories

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
While intuitively appealing, that's actually not the case. Economists call it "comparative advantage". As long as either of the two trading partners have different relative productive costs even in their own local economies (never mind the other partner), it's more efficient for each to specialize. There's more total stuff produced per unit of cost in the two-planet network.

There's also the point that if the TL6 planet produces nothing,

It's perfectly valid and in keeping with comparative advantage for the TL6 planet to largely give up manufacture while still engaging in the production of other goods and services, specializing in exportable market segments like bespoke items, folk arts, agriculture, mercenaries, domestic servants, educators, performers, life coaches....
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