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Old 11-10-2014, 06:12 PM   #11
DouglasCole
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Default Re: Grappling - ruleset preferences and issues (Basic, Pyramid, MA, TG etc.)

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
(I find it ironic that TG added such a non-genericness, even though there were rants about the non-genericness of HT-based resistance to chokes and arm locks for all these years.)
Anyone who makes you roll to pick up a mouse will be beaten to death with Peter Dell'Orto's DMG. And they'll deserve it. :-)
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Old 11-10-2014, 06:28 PM   #12
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Default Re: Grappling - ruleset preferences and issues (Basic, Pyramid, MA, TG etc.)

I haven't even looked at Technical Grappling. I don't feel I understand the Basic Set rules fully; I'm not prepared to try to decide whether an alternative set of rules improves on them. And the one definite thing I've heard about TG, the use of a mechanic analogous to hit points or fatigue points to measure the effect of a grappling move, sounds like it's kind of the opposite of my preferred direction for mechanics, which is away from keeping track of artificially defined accounting variables. I don't even really like hit points, though so many games use them that I put up with them.

So I'm not in a position to discuss the different systems in an informed way.

Bill Stoddard
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Old 11-10-2014, 06:33 PM   #13
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Default Re: [MA] Silent Sentry Removal

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
[list][*]It adds tracking of another HP-like unit, essentially for several hit locations of each fighter involved. While I find it a slowing-down drawback, albeit a tolerable one, a large fraction of other roleplayers in my circle will absolutely refuse to participate a game with such an addition. Whether or not this is the same sort of refusal as is the cause behind Dvorak keyboards never catching on is hard to tell.
Just as a historical note, that thing about Dvorak keyboards is propaganda. I've read a historical study by two economists who looked into the actual records (it's in Daniel Spulber's anthology Famous Fables). The Wikipedia article gives a decent summary of the matter.

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Old 11-10-2014, 06:59 PM   #14
DouglasCole
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Default Re: Grappling - ruleset preferences and issues (Basic, Pyramid, MA, TG etc.)

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
I don't even really like hit points, though so many games use them that I put up with them.

So I'm not in a position to discuss the different systems in an informed way.

Bill Stoddard
You might, well, if not "enjoy," at least be less repulsed by my Condition-based Grappling option, which takes the effect roll for CP and boils the results down to a descriptor.
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Old 11-10-2014, 08:15 PM   #15
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Default Re: Grappling - ruleset preferences and issues (Basic, Pyramid, MA, TG etc.)

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
You might, well, if not "enjoy," at least be less repulsed by my Condition-based Grappling option, which takes the effect roll for CP and boils the results down to a descriptor.
I'm afraid it still requires me to keep track of CP, which is the big thing I want to avoid. It's not only that they require accounting, though that does make them less appealing; it's also that they're a gaming abstraction that I can't relate to the physical world. I like my narrative to be founded on simulation rather than on game, as much as possible, if that makes any sense.

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Old 11-10-2014, 08:44 PM   #16
DouglasCole
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Default Re: Grappling - ruleset preferences and issues (Basic, Pyramid, MA, TG etc.)

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
I'm afraid it still requires me to keep track of CP, which is the big thing I want to avoid. It's not only that they require accounting, though that does make them less appealing; it's also that they're a gaming abstraction that I can't relate to the physical world. I like my narrative to be founded on simulation rather than on game, as much as possible, if that makes any sense.

Bill Stoddard
True enough. Control Points are "hit points for grappling," an explicit analogy to the basic currency of injury and penetration for GURPS. So if you don't like keeping track of HP, you won't like keeping track of CP even more. For that, you will want to focus on the usual binary "grappled/not-grappled" switch that has given rise to grappling either not being used or a total "I win!" button as it can be in GURPS right now. CP are actually a strong narrative aid, but if you don't like them, you won't like the system.
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Old 11-10-2014, 08:58 PM   #17
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Default Re: Grappling - ruleset preferences and issues (Basic, Pyramid, MA, TG etc.)

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
CP are actually a strong narrative aid, but if you don't like them, you won't like the system.
What I'd like is a qualitative narrative aid that's not point-based. I have trouble visualizing what's going on in the standard GURPS rules, but adding numbers isn't going to help.

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Old 11-10-2014, 09:22 PM   #18
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Default Re: [MA] Silent Sentry Removal

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Can you link me to a discussion of the piledriver-vs-a-housecat issue? It would a total derailment to discuss it here, but I'm not familiar.

EDIT: ah, thank you. Now that it's germane, is the problem that weak combatants can resist attacks with HT, making it unrealistically difficult to administer maneuvers like a piledriver on smaller enemies?
No, the (perceived) problem is that the rules were not designed to extrapolate to very, very low multiples of Weight/Basic Lift, bottoming out for a combat pickup at a +5 bonus.

So if you apply the rules by rote with no nod to sensibility - as in the example of making someone roll HT to pick up a mouse - you can get some results that are as reflective of useful adventuring situations as you might expect.

Where things could have been done better is to look at the rule on p. B353:

"In combat, you can pick up an item that weighs no more than your Basic
Lift by taking a one-second Ready maneuver."

and note that for items this light (and using a one-handed basic lift of BL/4) you don't need to bother with an opposed roll which is the default assumption of the pickup.

Now, the ten-pound cat is an interesting case, because I can absolutely imagine that picking up a violently objecting ten-pound bowling ball could cause one to strain an arm if you didn't lift right.

Also, the cat is SM -3, giving the human +3 DX while grappling. The +3 to DX was designed to basically account for reach and the opportunity to apply reach successfully. That seems to carry over pretty well to HT, and it would be reasonable giving the lifter +1 to HT as well for this as a benefit of SM advantages. Of course, Piledriver does default to Wrestling-5, which DOES get the bonus for SM already. That brings the one-handed lift by a limb to skill 14, a 90% chance of success, and a torso lift to "only an issue on a crit."

But the mouse is a pointless example. Take a Ready maneuver and be done with it, unless your basic lift (or BL/4, one handed) is so low that, well, it's not pointless anymore.
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Old 11-10-2014, 09:22 PM   #19
DouglasCole
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Default Re: Grappling - ruleset preferences and issues (Basic, Pyramid, MA, TG etc.)

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
What I'd like is a qualitative narrative aid that's not point-based. I have trouble visualizing what's going on in the standard GURPS rules, but adding numbers isn't going to help.

Bill Stoddard
Can you visualize "-2 to ST and DX?"
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Old 11-10-2014, 09:28 PM   #20
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Default Re: Grappling - ruleset preferences and issues (Basic, Pyramid, MA, TG etc.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
What I'd like is a qualitative narrative aid that's not point-based. I have trouble visualizing what's going on in the standard GURPS rules, but adding numbers isn't going to help.

Bill Stoddard
Could do it this way:
You have a Negligible (-0), Weak (-2), Moderate (-4), Strong (-6) Hold (#=penalty inflicted); and you could base it on the MoS of the Grappling Contest rather than a "damage" roll. Then you have a "narrative" on the surface, but under the hood, you're still using CPs.
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