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Old 11-07-2014, 08:11 AM   #1
vicky_molokh
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Default Folding Shovel / Entrenching Tool - quality rules and customization?

Greetings, all!

So, High-Tech p.25 gives us the Shovel, Folding, aka the Entrenching Tool. Which awesomely can perform the function of a shovel, a pick (according to people who used one, not explicit in HT), and can also be used as an ax at -2 skill*. All for the low low cost of $10, and a base mass of 3 lbs. Meanwhile, an ax weights 4 lbs. All this raises some questions about what is and isn't acceptable to do with it:

Since it counts as a weapon, albeit an exotic/improvised one, does this disqualify this item from using the Quality modifiers on High-Tech pages 9-10 and B345?

If it is legal to make an Expensive variant of the item, does this result in re-evaluating its MinST as per Low-Tech Companion 2 page 15?

Can it have Weapon Quality modifiers applied to it (e.g. LT59)?

*
Spoiler:  


Thanks in advance!
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Old 11-07-2014, 09:08 AM   #2
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Default Re: Folding Shovel / Entrenching Tool - quality rules and customization?

I can't think of any reason it shouldn't be able to take weapon quality modifiers. I don't know if any entrenching tools are made like that, but they certainly could be.

I think a lot of things could count as kinda sorta picks. If you really need a real pick you won't be happy with an entrenching tool but it can do a lot of things you might want a pick for.
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Old 11-07-2014, 09:16 AM   #3
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Default Re: Folding Shovel / Entrenching Tool - quality rules and customization?

I would say yes on making it a better weapon, but not on being a better shovel or pick.
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Old 11-09-2014, 05:01 AM   #4
vicky_molokh
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Default Re: Folding Shovel / Entrenching Tool - quality rules and customization?

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Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
I would say yes on making it a better weapon, but not on being a better shovel or pick.
That's quite ambiguous. Do you mean that it would be inappropriate to give them the Good/Fine/Very Fine modifier towards the digging quality, or that it would also be impossible to give them the Expensive modifier?
(Yes, I get that you're okay with giving it the Fine/Very Fine damage and toughness modifier.)
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Old 11-09-2014, 02:06 PM   #5
johndallman
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Default Re: Folding Shovel / Entrenching Tool - quality rules and customization?

Making an entrenching tool Fine as a weapon seems plausible: make it of good steel and sharpen it. The better steel is probably Expensive, but reducing the weight may reduce its damage, although it might well reduce the attack penalty too.

Making it better for digging is a problem, since it just isn't as large or heavy as a proper pick or shovel, which would make it worse at either job even if the design wasn't compromised by having to do both. Expensive can make it more durable, but doing better than that seems to be hard: if it wasn't, first-world militaries would have better entrenching tools.

The weight and design of the things probably varies a fair bit. I'm having a poke around the interwebs.
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Old 11-09-2014, 02:14 PM   #6
Flyndaran
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Default Re: Folding Shovel / Entrenching Tool - quality rules and customization?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
That's quite ambiguous. Do you mean that it would be inappropriate to give them the Good/Fine/Very Fine modifier towards the digging quality, or that it would also be impossible to give them the Expensive modifier?
(Yes, I get that you're okay with giving it the Fine/Very Fine damage and toughness modifier.)
Entrenching tools are too compact and minimalist to improve enough to qualify for Gurps bonuses, in my opinion. They already exemplify an ingenious portable digging tool specialized as if they already were fine.

In what ways could you make something that small as effective or more so than full sized specialized shovels and picks?
Digging often involves specific types of shovels for specific types of substrate/ground.
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Old 11-09-2014, 02:32 PM   #7
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Default Re: Folding Shovel / Entrenching Tool - quality rules and customization?

Just to be curious, what TL would be practical for the entrenching tool. I know the idea of needing to dig a pit to hide from fire arises from automatic weapons, but the actual tech and engineering to build the things comes in at TL..3?, 4? Threaded screws/bolts, reliable hinge etc. I figure it would be very expensive, for a shovel, at TL3, and certainly not something for every soldier.

Ideas?
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Old 11-09-2014, 04:09 PM   #8
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Default Re: Folding Shovel / Entrenching Tool - quality rules and customization?

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Originally Posted by Gedrin View Post
Just to be curious, what TL would be practical for the entrenching tool. I know the idea of needing to dig a pit to hide from fire arises from automatic weapons, but the actual tech and engineering to build the things comes in at TL..3?, 4? Threaded screws/bolts, reliable hinge etc. I figure it would be very expensive, for a shovel, at TL3, and certainly not something for every soldier.

Ideas?
Entrenching tools have been around in one form or another since Roman times.
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Old 11-09-2014, 06:25 PM   #9
Flyndaran
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Default Re: Folding Shovel / Entrenching Tool - quality rules and customization?

While technically possible to make at TL 2, screws and gearing were hella' expensive and required experts to hand make.
I'm sure well made hinges would suffice for nearly any reasonable use.
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Old 11-10-2014, 06:42 AM   #10
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Default Re: Folding Shovel / Entrenching Tool - quality rules and customization?

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Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
MThe weight and design of the things probably varies a fair bit. I'm having a poke around the interwebs.
It does, at TL6. The British used a take-down pick/mattock that was rather heavier than the one on high-tech at 5lb, but looks effective. It also seems similar to a Roman design.

The USA had a variety of designs, and there's a good page here.

The Germans seem to have had the first true folding shovel. Before that they had used a simple small rigid shovel, as per the text here.

The Japanese used a simple take-down shovel.

The Soviets had a simple small rigid shovel.
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