Concealed Carry (CCW), Undercover Holsters, Holdout, IWB and real-world models

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Icelander

There is absolutely nothing wrong with taking Equipment Bond for a given holster/gun/clothing combination, but it shouldn't necessarily cost points. It's something that costs money and time in the real world, but I think that the $300 Cost of Good-quality Ordinary Clothing designed to conceal things is fair enough.

Of course, if the rules allow, I'd usually start with a $60 item of Concealed Carry Clothing (Tactical Shooting p. 73) and add the (quality) Holdout bonus for tailoring on to the (equipment) bonus for the CCW clothing. But I don't know if that's kosher.

I'm mostly talking about the fact that 'item specialised to provide the bonus to one and only one user' is usually represented as Equipment Bond, while Quality Bonus is just Quality Bonus.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

I'm mostly talking about the fact that 'item specialised to provide the bonus to one and only one user' is usually represented as Equipment Bond, while Quality Bonus is just Quality Bonus.

Sure, but in a realistic campaign, any quality bonus for Clothing is likely to be subject to similar restrictions as that for Armour, i.e. it is designed for a particular wearer and if you aren't built exactly the same, it won't necessarily have the same Expert Tailoring bonuses for you and may even give a penalty.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Given that there is no default between Search and Observation, I'm inclined to say that for finding stuff on people, only Search will do.

Observation pretty clearly includes gathering tactical data about a situation and only a very mean GM would not interpret 'noting who is armed' as gathering tactically significant details.

The description for Observation even makes a point to distinguish it from Search in that you use Observation from a distance, but Search for a hands-on search.

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

The wording seems to imply that if a pat-down is +1, then +0 is something without a pat-down - extremely likely a visual search.

That would give us no way to represent a quick patdown that took far less time than the full one minute required for a +1 bonus. Most Search rolls in reality or in a campaign will not represent the sort of full-body patdown that it takes minute to carefully administer, they'll be the familiar rapid patting down of most likely places to conceal a weapon we know from TV shows or real encounters with police or security in a tense situation.

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Ten seconds feels right to me. It also plays nicely with Reduced Time modifiers!

Agreed.

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

As I said before, there's no default between the two skills at all, so I'm guessing Observation shouldn't be doing it at all.

Then what kind of 'concealed or tactically significant details' does Observation give you about a group of people? If it can't tell you which members of a crowd are armed, what good is it for monitoring a group of people for potential dangers to your principal?

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Observation pretty clearly includes gathering tactical data about a situation and only a very mean GM would not interpret 'noting who is armed' as gathering tactically significant details.

Yes, but soldiers supposedly normally carry weapons openly, either in hands on on LBG of some sort.

Originally Posted by Icelander

The description for Observation even makes a point to distinguish it from Search in that you use Observation from a distance, but Search for a hands-on search.

There doesn't seem to be a provision for Observation resisting Holdout; it seems intentional to me.

Originally Posted by Icelander

That would give us no way to represent a quick patdown that took far less time than the full one minute required for a +1 bonus. Most Search rolls in reality or in a campaign will not represent the sort of full-body patdown that it takes minute to carefully administer, they'll be the familiar rapid patting down of most likely places to conceal a weapon we know from TV shows or real encounters with police or security in a tense situation.

Maybe let the quick pat-down compensate 1 level of Reduced Time penalty.

Originally Posted by Icelander

Then what kind of 'concealed or tactically significant details' does Observation give you about a group of people? If it can't tell you which members of a crowd are armed, what good is it for monitoring a group of people for potential dangers to your principal?

Who of them is the the officer (despite everyone using identical chevrons and nobody saluting another outside tents). Are they communicating using military signs, or ad-hoc gestures? If they're identified as military openly, are they conscripts or contract soldiers? If they're guerrillas, do they carry their weapons and other gear as if they're Little Green Men or as actual local volunteers? If they're not LGM, are they hired from the local stock of criminals and addicts? Coerced through some sort of threat (usually to relatives)? 'Tourists' hired across the border? Ex-military who got re-hired, but are nonetheless somewhat rusty by now? If they're from across the border, are they Russian Kadyrians, Russian Russians, or Russian Russians pretending to be Kadyrians to benefit from the intimidation factor? Are they armed with Cold War AK-47's that you could find all across the world, or the newly AK-100+'s that are hard to find outside RF? Is their camouflage off-the-shelf, or optimised specifically for the more common terrain colours of Donbas? That sort of thing.

[dcarson]

In a slightly cinematic campaign I'd also allow Body Language to spot people that hold themselves like they are armed.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by dcarson

In a slightly cinematic campaign I'd also allow Body Language to spot people that hold themselves like they are armed.

Body Language can certainly spot threathening demeanour, even in the most realistic of campaigns.

I'd often use it as a Complementary Skill for Observation, when used by security personell to note which members of a crowd pose a potential threat to their principal.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

There doesn't seem to be a provision for Observation resisting Holdout; it seems intentional to me.

That seems very strange to me. The text for Observation specifically notes that Search is the skill for hands-on searches, which heavily implies that Observation is the skill for purely visual scans for weapons or other hidden objects on people.

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Maybe let the quick pat-down compensate 1 level of Reduced Time penalty.

A hands-on search that necessiates a subdued or docile target, as well as alerting everyone that you are checking that specific person for weapons or other hidden objects, ought to be far quicker and more effective than a covert visual scan for the same things.

If it wasn't, security personell wouldn't bother to physically pat people down.

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Yes, but soldiers supposedly normally carry weapons openly, either in hands on on LBG of some sort.

[...]

Who of them is the the officer (despite everyone using identical chevrons and nobody saluting another outside tents). Are they communicating using military signs, or ad-hoc gestures? If they're identified as military openly, are they conscripts or contract soldiers? If they're guerrillas, do they carry their weapons and other gear as if they're Little Green Men or as actual local volunteers? If they're not LGM, are they hired from the local stock of criminals and addicts? Coerced through some sort of threat (usually to relatives)? 'Tourists' hired across the border? Ex-military who got re-hired, but are nonetheless somewhat rusty by now? If they're from across the border, are they Russian Kadyrians, Russian Russians, or Russian Russians pretending to be Kadyrians to benefit from the intimidation factor? Are they armed with Cold War AK-47's that you could find all across the world, or the newly AK-100+'s that are hard to find outside RF? Is their camouflage off-the-shelf, or optimised specifically for the more common terrain colours of Donbas? That sort of thing.

Observation is not an exclusively military skill, used only in military contexts. It is specifically noted as a primary skill for security guards and bodyguards.

What tactical or concealed details does the use of the Observation skill on a crowd of people within range of the US President reveal to a Secret Service agent? If it doesn't note weapons under coats, Observation isn't very useful to bodyguards and I've been using it wrong in my campaigns.

That being said, clearly a one-second scan with Observation ought not be remotely as likely to find a concealed weapon as a pat-down using Search.

[Icelander]

I'd be inclined to say that normal use of the Observation skill took one minute and revealed hidden details on an unmodified skill roll. If you try to find a weapon or other thing hidden with Holdout, it's an unmodified Quick Contest.

A normal success or victory in the QC would, however, usually just reveal that the target is hiding some object, the general type (handgun, knife, wallet, etc.) of which you can discern, but not details such as the specific model or even what kind of handgun, on a specific location of his body. Success by 5+ would allow you to effectively see the item/weapon and reconstruct exactly the way it was hidden and how it could be accessed.

'Combat' use of Observation, with a Concentrate manueuver that takes one second, would then effectively be Instant use of Observation, for a -10 to skill, but that would usually be counteracted by the +10 bonus for spotting things in plain sight. I'd allow Taking Extra Time for that kind of Observation, up to +5 for 32 seconds, but note that this kind of 'combat' Observation is inherently giving less detail than a fuller 'non-combat' scan, with a base time of 1 minute.

I'd say that you could use 'combat' Observation to roll unmodified to spot who is wearing clothing that would suggest that he might be able to use Holdout to conceal weapons, but actually spotting concealed weapons would be at a minimum -5 penalty.

Thus, you'd rarely see items hidden with Holdout, since they'd generally be behind one layer or more of clothing, which means that you wouldn't get the full +10 to spot them and you'd also have to win a Quick Contest.

I'd probably say that the mere fact that someone actively tried to hide something under their clothing imposed at mininum a -5 penalty to your Observation in the Quick Contest against his Holdout, assuming that the clothing covered it at all. That means you'd be at Observation-5 against IQ-5 against anyone untrained in Holdout, modified for clothing.

Furthermore, I'd give even less specific information for a success on this roll than for a success at 'non-combat' Observation which takes a full minute. You'd just know that there appears to be something hidden in that general area of his body. Success by 5+ would give the same information as a regular success with 'non-combat' Observation and success by 10+ would give the same as success by 5+ gave with one-minute scans.

This means that someone with Observation at 15 can fairly reliably (effective skill 12 against effective skill 5) spot whether untrained people are carrying something concealed with a four second scan for each person, but it's extremely difficult for them to find weapons carried by people with Holdout skill unless they take a full minute to study the way the people change position, move and carry themselves.

Too harsh?

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Observation is not an exclusively military skill, used only in military contexts. It is specifically noted as a primary skill for security guards and bodyguards.

What tactical or concealed details does the use of the Observation skill on a crowd of people within range of the US President reveal to a Secret Service agent? If it doesn't note weapons under coats, Observation isn't very useful to bodyguards and I've been using it wrong in my campaigns.

That being said, clearly a one-second scan with Observation ought not be remotely as likely to find a concealed weapon as a pat-down using Search.

That guy is supposedly British. He's supposedly born Oop North, but his accent is perfect Received Pronunciation with no sign of regional variation whatsoever. He follows protocol and the guidelines of his CF perfectly, except that his shoestrings are tied in a way that a high-class Brit would never do. He's wearing glasses, but they appear to result in zero refraction; he also happen to be wearing contact lenses; maybe they're worn as part of a disguise. As he moves across the room throughout the evening, he always stays in sight of this other guy; surely this is not a coincidence. As the evening goes by, he seems to drink significantly more than the others, yet seems to be 100% sober; either he's just naturally more alcohol-tolerant, or there's something more interesting going on.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

That guy is supposedly British. He's supposedly born Oop North, but his accent is perfect Received Pronunciation with no sign of regional variation whatsoever. He follows protocol and the guidelines of his CF perfectly, except that his shoestrings are tied in a way that a high-class Brit would never do. He's wearing glasses, but they appear to result in zero refraction; he also happen to be wearing contact lenses; maybe they're worn as part of a disguise. As he moves across the room throughout the evening, he always stays in sight of this other guy; surely this is not a coincidence. As the evening goes by, he seems to drink significantly more than the others, yet seems to be 100% sober; either he's just naturally more alcohol-tolerant, or there's something more interesting going on.

For the red parts, I'm not sure how a Per-based skill that receives Acute Vision bonuses can handle knowing and recognising regional accents. Matter of fact, I've often struggled with what skill to use to represent knowledge of accents. Linguistics skill can be used, but in real life, a lot of people who are good at noting details about someone from the way he talks don't have the first idea about actual Linguistics. It really is more of a Complementary Skill to whatever roll ought to be used to analyse someone's vocabulary, diction, tone and accent to make guesses at where he comes from, how he's educated, etc.

In any case, I'd not use a Per-based check with a bonus for Acute Vision for analysing speech patterns. At best, IQ-based Observation and more probably require a roll against Intelligence Analysis (with Linguistics as a Complementary Skill, if possessed) to get such detail.

As for spotting that he's wearing contact lenses, how on Earth do you spot an item hidden at Holdout +4, but not even allow a check to spot the printing of a handgun hidden at Holdout -2?