The Complete GURPS Dungeon Fantasy

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by robertsconley

D&D 4th edition, the powers system and a framework that enforces when you can take each one (like the prerequisite system of Magic)

Each 4th edition power doesn't do anything paritcular for a niche in of itself. But in combination the choice of powers to a classes defines that class niche. Hence the niche a class occupies a emergent characteristic of the colleciton of powers that make up that class.

The same for Magic the Gathering decks. Different type of decks have different strengths and play styles because of how the cards interact.

GURPS can easily emulate this type of structure.

How, exactly, is that not metagame: "You can only buy these powers if you belong to X class; you must buy these powers only, other classes powers are not available to you (or are only available with a surcharge)." is the same as saying "You have to pick a template. Many things will not be on your template because they are not appropriate to your class. Many things on your template will not be available to other templates because they are appropriate only to your class."

[robertsconley]

Originally Posted by Bruno

How, exactly, is that not metagame: "You can only buy these powers if you belong to X class; you must buy these powers only, other classes powers are not available to you

Because using GURPS you can make it a prerequisite tier type system like Magic instead of just saying this is your template/class and this is all you can pick.

So each of the fourth edition classes would be separate paths. Players can choose to start one and stay with that to the end or start two, or three, and so on. Just like in Magic you can start with one college and learn the hell of it or start multiple colleges.

I agree using the template as the basis for niche protection is arbitrary compared to the normal GURPS way. But using a D&D 4th style power setup not based on templates but prerequisties then you get niche protection yet it is still GURPS.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by robertsconley

I agree using the template as the basis for niche protection is arbitrary compared to the normal GURPS way. But using a D&D 4th style power setup not based on templates but prerequisties then you get niche protection yet it is still GURPS.

... from every read through I've seen of 4e, it is not a tree, and does not have prerequisites beyond "Must have level X of class Y".

You can't use Reaping Strikes unless you're a Fighter who can use level 1 Fighter powers (or you've paid the premium of two feats to multiclass into Fighter and unlock the early powers).

Period.

Level 3 fighter powers don't require you to have level 1 fighter powers, they require you to be a Fighter who has access to level 3 powers - by being a level 3 fighter - or to have payed the prerequisite feats to multiclass.

That's the same as "You must have the Fighter template, or have lensed into Fighter".

Armor Piercing Thrust does not require Reaping Strikes, Precise Strike does not require Sure Strike. There are no prerequisites other than "must be of the correct class and level, or have payed the feats to multiclass into the correct class, and be of the correct level"

[robertsconley]

Originally Posted by Bruno

... from every read through I've seen of 4e, it is not a tree, and does not have prerequisites beyond "Must have level X of class Y".

Of course. Because D&D 4e is a level based system.

To turn it into a prerequisite based system you say some like

Prerequiste: You must have two from the following list.

I don't have the rule book in front of me but I believe you get a utility power at 2nd level. So the prerequisite would be

<each power in the 2nd level Utility list>

Prerequisite: You must have two powers from the <1st level at-will list>; one power from the <1st level encounter list>; one power from the <1st level daily list>

Then the next power you get would have a prerequisite.

Prerequisite: You must one power from the <2nd level Utility List>

Because you can't get the 2nd level Utility Power without getting fulfilling it's prerequisite which you can only do by buying the right number of 1st level powers.


Now of course the problem with this that point cost will be all over the place and some powers will be balanced differently than the other because the difference in the combat rules. And top it off all, like you pointed out, there is no real rhyme or reason to how D&D powers are setup other than for game effect.

But there is nothing that prevents building a GURPS equivalent with the same broad idea.

You have a Tier One that anybody can buy
You have a Tier Two that needs the right number of Tier Ones
You have a Tier Three that needs the right number of Tier Twos

and so on.

Then you repeat for the next niche you want to create.

The actual powers of the different tiers interact to fill a niche in the Dungeon Fantasy Party. Thus the niche is emergent from the list of powers used the tier rather than saying you can't pick anything outside of your template.

You be a generalist and just focus on buying a bunch of Tier One and a few Tier two powers. Or you can embrace the niche and buy up all the Tiers.

It is the same tradeoff using the Magic System.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by robkelk

Classes? In GURPS? <whimper>

I think we're going to have to "agree to disagree" on this, because it looks like there's a fundamental and irreconcilable difference between our views of the system.

I prefer to think of classes in GURPS as a type of template; they are useful if you have players who don't really have character concepts other than 'I want to be a thief', 'I want to be a Paladin', or "I want to be a wizard'. I choose a minimalist approach on my conversion sheet to keep things simple and flexable . Here is an example:

Fighter [14]
Armoury/TL (IQ/a), Bow (DX/a), Brawling (DX/e), Crossbow (DX/e)
Melee Weapons: Axe/Mace (DX/a), Flail (DX/h), Knife (DX/e), Polearm (DX/a), Spear (DX/a), Shortsword (DX/a), Two handed Axe/Mace (DX/a), and Two-handed sword (DX/a),
Shield (DX/e), Throwing (DX/a)
Optional advantages: Enhanced Defenses (B51), Trained By Master (B93), Weapon Master (B99)
Optional Wildcard skill: Sword! (DX, B175)
Barbarian Lens [+0] (F116)
You are a fighter from one of the ‘Uncivilized’ parts of the world. Add Basic Speed [5/0.25], Low TL [-5/TL]; Language (native speaker, illiterate) [-3]
Running (HT/a), Strategy (IQ/h), Tactics (IQ/h)
Optional Advantage: Enhanced Defenses (Dodge, B51)
Optional disadvantage: Berserk (B124)
Paladin Lens [+46]
You are a warrior defender of the faith. Add Blessed or Power Investiture (powers lost if Chivalric and/or Religious Codes broken, severe penance) [10], Rep +2 (from Religion) [10], Status 2 [10], Comfortable Wealth or Patron [10], True Faith [15], Vow (Chivalric Code of Honor) [-15];
Innate Attack (DX/e, B201), Riding (DX/a), Lance (DX/a), Heraldry (IQ/a), Savoir-Faire (IQ/e), Spells (IQ/h-v)
Optional advantages: Healing (B56)
Optional skills: Esoteric Medicine (B192), Hidden Lore (B199), Physician/TL (B213)
Ranger Lens [+12/+17]
You are fighter with an affinity with nature. Add Magery 0 [5] or Power Investiture [10];
Animal Handling (IQ/a), Hiking (HT/a), Innate Attack (DX/e, B201) Naturalist (IQ/h), Survival (IQ/a), Tracking (IQ/a), Veterinary/TL (IQ/v)
Optional advantages: Animal Empathy (B40), Talent (Animal Friend) (B89-90)

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Once the DF line is more expanded, I'd love to see a hardback compilation, organized into a single volume. I know that'll take more layout work, but I think that it's well worth pulling together properly.

I'd buy it, and I'd give it as gifts to fantasy gaming friends to use for GURPS or for their non-GURPS games.

[El Guapo]

Originally Posted by Toadkiller_Dog

Once the DF line is more expanded, I'd love to see a hardback compilation, organized into a single volume. I know that'll take more layout work, but I think that it's well worth pulling together properly.

I'd buy it, and I'd give it as gifts to fantasy gaming friends to use for GURPS or for their non-GURPS games.

Oh yeah? I'd buy a case of them and use the extras as a coffee table. Okay, maybe not, but I would definitely buy this even after getting all the pdfs.