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Old 01-22-2019, 11:09 AM   #1
mirtexxan
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Italy
Default Damaged weapons malus?

Hi, new to the forum and very new to GURPS in general.
I've just completed my first complete read of the basic set, and I'm loving the game.

I have a quick question concerning the Ranged Attack Modifiers table (B548).

Where does the "Damaged weapon: -HP of injury received last turn (maximum -4)" line come from?

I've read multiple times "Striking at Weapons" (B400) and "Damage to Objects" (B483) but nothing about penalties to attack came from both paragraph, especially because according to the tables the malus seems to be ONLY related to ranged attacks.

Can you please help me in understanding this modifier?
Thank you
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Old 01-22-2019, 11:32 AM   #2
Jeraa
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Default Re: Damaged weapons malus?

Basic 484, left column, under Shock.

And it does apply to melee weapons (B547, middle column). (Though after rereading that, that seems to be more for the wielders shock penalty, not the weapons.) Still, the shock rules on B484 apply to all objects, so it is just missing from the list of modifiers.

Last edited by Jeraa; 01-22-2019 at 11:37 AM.
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Old 01-22-2019, 11:56 AM   #3
mirtexxan
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Italy
Default Re: Damaged weapons malus?

I'm not sure if the ref at page 484 applies here... especially because it is missing for melee weapons.
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Old 01-22-2019, 12:36 PM   #4
Anaraxes
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Default Re: Damaged weapons malus?

Jeraa cites the actual rule on B484. ("Apply the usual shock penalty to any use of that object." It could have said "except melee", but doesn't.) The tables summarize the rules, not replace or override them.

This isn't the only case where something's known to be missing from these tables. Size Modifier (SM) is probably the most famous (and debated). Notice the similarities to the object damage case: the text on B19 says SM is "a modifier to rolls to hit you in combat" (not mentioning just ranged or just melee); the melee section table on B547 doesn't mention SM in the steps to calculate a hit or list it among all the modifiers; the ranged section of the table on B548 does (as step 2).

Kromm has commented on the absence of SM from the melee combat modifiers table but not the ranged section. I'd think the same logic would apply in this case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
See p. B19:

Size Modifier rates a person or object's most significant dimension: length, width, or height. It is a modifier to rolls to hit you in combat and to Vision rolls made to spot you.


Note that it doesn't say "in ranged combat" or "only in ranged combat." The fact that SM doesn't appear in Melee Attack Modifiers (p. B547) is an oversight, I suppose . . . but not really. It was omitted for the same reason why speed isn't added to range in combat between fighters on foot (p. B550): as a simplification.
You could PM Kromm if you want to bring his attention to this discrepancy as well. Or maybe he'll comment here. If you do get a response, it'd be nice if you'd repost it here so we all know, and future searches can find it. (Perhaps nudge Vicky to put it in the uFAQ... even if it's not all that "F". There has to be a first time.)
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Old 01-22-2019, 12:56 PM   #5
RyanW
 
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Default Re: Damaged weapons malus?

I'm not sold on the universal applicability of that rule. Obviously, damage that could cause knockback could spoil the wielder's grip, stance, or rhythm. But what about a corrosive splash? How exactly does that reduce a club's effectiveness in such a way that the club "get's over it" after a second?
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Old 01-22-2019, 12:59 PM   #6
mirtexxan
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Italy
Default Re: Damaged weapons malus?

Thank you very much guys. So, let's simply call it an oversight. Funnily enough, the opposite - i.e. missing the modifier for ranged and just including it for melee weapons - would have been more understandable, cause it is way easier for a melee weapon to get damaged than a ranged weapon in most setting ;)

If I get some kind of "official" response, I will be posting it here for sure.
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Old 01-22-2019, 01:03 PM   #7
mirtexxan
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Italy
Default Re: Damaged weapons malus?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanW View Post
I'm not sold on the universal applicability of that rule. Obviously, damage that could cause knockback could spoil the wielder's grip, stance, or rhythm. But what about a corrosive splash? How exactly does that reduce a club's effectiveness in such a way that the club "get's over it" after a second?
Maybe it would be reasonable to apply the shock penalty for a given "use" of an object IF the damage it took somehow has the potential of impacting the "use" in point.

Or maybe, we could strive for simplicity and give the penalty in any scenario.

BTW, it seems to me that striking weapons in combat is hardly an effective tactic, so maybe using this rule is a way to improve the viability of sundering with respect to disarming or hitting the wielder directly.
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Old 01-22-2019, 01:53 PM   #8
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: Damaged weapons malus?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mirtexxan View Post
I'm not sure if the ref at page 484 applies here... especially because it is missing for melee weapons.
Perhaps a lot of sturdy/stable melee weapons follow this part of B484?
unless they have appropriate backup systems (represented by High Pain Threshold).
Maybe you functionally have backup if there is nothing to actually back up?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanW View Post
I'm not sold on the universal applicability of that rule. Obviously, damage that could cause knockback could spoil the wielder's grip, stance, or rhythm. But what about a corrosive splash? How exactly does that reduce a club's effectiveness in such a way that the club "get's over it" after a second?
Maybe it's something like High Pain Threshold (Limited, Energy Attacks) or High Pain Threshold (Bane: Crushing)?
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Old 01-22-2019, 02:24 PM   #9
Anaraxes
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Default Re: Damaged weapons malus?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanW View Post
I'm not sold on the universal applicability of that rule
I agree, but that's a different question :)

Even for regular damage (say cutting), it's hard to see how a simple object like a club or sword would get over it. But then, I could narratively interpret that result as simply the impact taking a weapon out of line, much like a Beat. For corrosion, I'd have to get more creative -- perhaps the wielder has to flick the nasty stuff off their blade, or hold it down and to the side for a moment so that it doesn't all run down on their hand, with any such details just getting abstracted into the generic penalty. Or perhaps those solid homogeneous objects should have traits that reflect their immunities to taking damage.

But whatever the imagined explanation, there doesn't seem to be any reason that melee weapons per se are universally immune as a class, while ranged weapons universally suffer such a penalty.
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