GURPS monsters/NPCs in D&D, take two

[maximara]

Originally Posted by 2097

One issue is that in GURPS, the difference between a easy task, an average task and a hard task (page B345) is that much greater than it is in D&D.

I found the way a 3d6 roll low interacts with a 1d20 roll high especially when the former has a sliding scale is a royal pain. It is far saner you use a 3d6 for both IF you want to do the reverse just use the percentages of the 3d6

Under this set up a 20 on a d20 always succeeds while a 1 always fails (and it is a always a critical failure).

Originally Posted by 2097

But see, this is why I come here to ask♥
Whenever I tried any mock fights in GURPS the fights were just never ending and required sometimes like 300 attacks and sometimes thousands. So clearly just whacking away at each other doesn't work. So how do they fight? That could help us come up with better math for our conversion formulas!.

I have to ask did you use GURPS' normal rules or its cinematic rules? The cinematic rules better fit D&D then the normal ones do.

The Chambara Fighting Rules are effectively a must have to convert a martial artist over to the Monk.

Originally Posted by 2097

This is one of the reason I never got very far with GURPS; my li'l mock fights (to learn) were never-ending. Either there would be endless whacking or endless "kiting".

The cinematic rules, GURPS Compendium II's Extended Critical Table (p 73), and the Very Basic Melee Combat option from Roleplayer #23 (May 1991) combined makes GURPS combat even faster then D&D's.

* Attack, Defense, and Damage are one contest of skills roll
"PC Raoul is facing NPC Edmond. Raoul's skill with his weapon is 15 and he has PD 2. Edmond's skill is 13, but he has PD 3: he rolls as if his skill were 14. Raoul rolls a 12 – he makes it by three. Edmond rolls a 10 – he makes it by four. Raoul takes 1 point of basic damage – but his armor stops it. In the next round, Edmond rolls a 15 – a miss. Raoul rolls a 6, however, making his roll by 9! Edmond takes 9 points of basic damage, unless Raoul is using a Rapier (for example), which has a maximum damage of 7. Note that even though Raoul beat Edmond by 10 (he made his roll by 9, Edmond missed his by 1), basic damage is only equal to the amount that Raoul actually made his own roll by."

*Multiple Combatants
This works best if the NPCs are effectively interchangeable. "The GM simply rolls once for all NPCs, and announces how well the roll was made. This is the result for each of the PC’s opponents"

*Critical Hits and Misses
"For simplicity, treat a critical miss as a dropped weapon. Treat a critical hit as maximum damage."

Also remember A “critical hit” automatically hits home – your foe does not get an active defense roll!

Originally Posted by 2097

Aha! In that case, I definitely underestimated the levels of active defense that is typical in GURPS. That's where that error came from. I thought people had like +8, +9 in active defense, something like that.

With regard to this conversion it helps to keep in mind the chances for getting a particular success roll.

More over are three defense options: Dodge (Basic Speed+ 3), Parry (3 + half Melee Weapon skill), and Block (3 + half Shield or Cloak skill)

The 4e conversion of King David ben-Jesse has Basic Speed 6 (Dodge-9 or 37.5%), Shortsword-14 (Parry-10 or 50%), and Shield-14 (Block-10 or 50%)

Alexander the Great by contrast has a Dodge-11 (62.5%) but a Parry and Block of 9 (37.5%) or an average of ~46% or just under 10 (50%) on a 3d6.

You might want to look at all the warriors on the GURPSwiki from Who's Who 1 and 2 to practice on.

[2097]

Thank you Maximara. I was under the impression that you used the higher of your active defense options rather than the average.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by 2097

Thank you Maximara. I was under the impression that you used the higher of your active defense options rather than the average.

More accurately you use the higher of your applicable active defense options. For example, you can't parry with an unready melee weapon (effectively a flail you tried to hit with last turn) or Block if your shield is entangled.

Also there are certain Maneuvers that totally negate the option of an active defense (All out attack)

The key thing to remember is at combat turn in GURPS is far faster then in D&D:

Combat in GURPS is fast in terms of game time (a turn is a second). A D&D 3.0+ combat round is 6 seconds long (6 GURPS turns) and an AD&D 1-2 combat round is about a minute (60 GURPS turns). Also a lot of things in GURPS that are separate actions (Dodge, Parry, and Block) or Maneuver are built-in to D&D combat.

For example, human with 10s in everything has a Dodge 9 which, barring a critical success with an attack, succeeds 37.5% of the time. An adjusted weapon 16 can ''potentially'' hit 98.1% of the time with a 9.3% chance a critical hit. So the 88.8% of the time that the attack can be dodged it will hit only 33% of the time on any one GURPS turn. While this may seem pathetic remember that an D&D combat turn is at least 6 GURPS turns long with everything abstracted so the odds are actually a lot better. To simulate the speed of D&D combat the Very Basic Melee Combat option can serve as a stand in.

[Phoenix_Dragon]

Originally Posted by 2097

One issue is that in GURPS, the difference between a easy task, an average task and a hard task (page B345) is that much greater than it is in D&D.

That was kind of my point. The systems have a very significant difference in how they model success and odds, but you're trying to port characters over without accounting for this. I get that you want their chances of success to be the same in one system to the other, but that's the source of all the problems here. Probably the greatest of those problems is that by doing so, the converted character you're making doesn't fit into the world in the same place the original character did.

To me, that's the important part: it produces characters of vastly different world-relative power than the source character, and it does it in such a way that the relative strengths between two individuals can change dramatically.

For example, another member of the group is a half-dragon spear-fighter. He's decent strength, but not as strong as the beetle-warrior (ST13). But he is a master with his fancy lightning-enhanced spear (Effective skill 20!), pretty good on the defense (Parry 14), is a bit faster on his feet (No encumbrance), has luck, and has a combination of light scales and some expensive magic items granting him a general DR of 5 (And this isn't even counting his ability to fly or his weak but surprisingly effective lightning breath). How does he stack up with your conversion? Well, ST13 means a +6 mod, so he's doing 1d6+6 to her 1d6+12. They both have the same attack bonus (+12) despite him being much more skilled. He has 55 HP. And AC18. According to the DMG, he'd be CR 4 (2 defensive, 5 offensive).

So how does combat go? Well, let's assume he doesn't just take off and start blasting her with lightning. Let's keep them on the ground, face-to-face. She hits 75% of her attacks on him and puts him down with an average of 4 hits; that's an average of almost 6 attacks. He hits only 55% of his attacks, and it takes 10 to put her down; that's an average about 18 attacks to put her down. Roughly three times longer than he would live. Even if we upped his damage output by roughly the amount his spear's lightning enchantment does (About 4 points, so 1d+10), that only reduces it to 7 hits and 13 attacks, about twice as long as he would live. It's not even remotely fair.

But here's the thing: in GURPS, they're a damn close match. He's got the skill to throw Deceptive Attacks that devastate her block chance. He can reliably apply a solid defense penalty through feints. He can target more vulnerable locations, like chinks in the armor or eye-slits, allowing him to negate her massive armor advantage. With options like defensive grip, defensive attack, or the occasional retreat, he can bump his parry up to 16+ basically whenever he wants. He has enough skill to largely neuter her go-to defense reducer (A beat), and even if she does succeed, it's an obvious move that allows him time to go defensive before she can strike. He can even make multiple attacks, burning her best defense on the first to give the second a better chance of landing. And if she does land a hit that he fails to defend against... he can use his luck and get two more chances, which he'll almost certainly succeed at. Or he can use it to negate a critical success on her side, giving him an edge in the crit-fishing race. It'd be a tough fight, but far from a forgone conclusion. I'm not quite certain who I'd put my money on. Whoever wins will probably emerge unscathed.

Your conversion takes two well-matched fighters and makes them completely uneven. It doesn't preserve the mechanical or thematic qualities of the converted characters. It's to the point where you might as well just give them arbitrary eyeballed values, because they only superficially resemble the characters they're based on.

I get the goal you're going for, but you're turning characters that are experts, but far short of masters, into characters that are often more skilled than 20th level characters at the peak of human ability, which is a huge disconnect. Your conversion would make a GURPS pony able to wrestle a tarrasque and win.

The numbers you need know to fight someone is AC, HP, their to-hit bonus, and their damage expression, and their number of attacks if there is more than one.

Your conversion has no apparent way of assigning multiple attacks, or else both the characters I've mentioned would likely qualify. She typically has another weapon in her fourth hand (Usually an axe, because they're cheap, but she'd like to get a good sword for more options), and can reasonably pull off Dual-Weapon Attacks, while he can reliably make use of Rapid Strike.

But that's exactly why you would hire a GURPS accountant and not some rando from the monster manual.

Because D&D characters are using special abilities such as Reliable Talent or spells like Knock or Spider Climb whereas the GURPS accountant can just sit down and math it out♥

"Hire this character because he's converted from a different system and therefor is just better" seems like the most horrible metagamey sort of thing, and to me is a pretty clear sign that the conversion has problems.

That said: Reliable Talent only increases the average roll from 10.5 to 12.75, GURPS characters can have traits like Luck that can dramatically change the odds, and GURPS characters can have spells or powers that do the same things as those D&D spells.

Oh, damage types is something that is supported, but in a simpler way.

I'm well aware that damage types are a thing in D&D, but that doesn't address what I was talking about. In D&D, halberds can only do slashing damage, while in GURPS, she could do the equivalent of slashing, piercing, or even bludgeoning, all with effects that make the actual damage inflicted different from just the raw number rolled, and which can have dramatically different effectiveness against armor. It's not as simple as converting straight across.

She blocks 98% of attacks!?

Not even remotely.

She has a base chance of 98%, but GURPS has a lot of ways to bring down someone's defenses, so she's rarely rolling at 16. For example, the half-dragon fighter above can drop her block as low as 11 every single turn. Or he can feint, reducing her defense to an average of 12 on the next turn, while following up with a pair of rapid strikes or a single thrust to the eyes. She also only gets that so long as she has her shield, and since many of the attacks that are blocked will cause damage to the shield, her shield can be destroyed. And she only gets full skill for the first block each turn (Even with the rules allowing multiple blocks, she's at -5 for each extra block attempted). And she has lower block chance against something hitting from the side, and is unable to block at all against attacks opposite her shield side. So no, she doesn't block anywhere close to 98% of attacks.

Whenever I tried any mock fights in GURPS the fights were just never ending and required sometimes like 300 attacks and sometimes thousands. So clearly just whacking away at each other doesn't work. So how do they fight?

Beats, feints, ruses, deceptive attack, rapid strikes, dual weapon attacks, counterattacks, evaluate, maybe even some ripostes.

Also, don't forget committed and defensive attacks, reverse grip, retreat, slip, and the dozens of other options.

Now add terrain, lighting, fatigue, relative numbers, support from other characters, etc, etc...

You're not going to come up with a formulaic way of simulating GURPS combat accurately to the way it plays out without ridiculous levels of complexity.

Aha! In that case, I definitely underestimated the levels of active defense that is typical in GURPS. That's where that error came from. I thought people had like +8, +9 in active defense, something like that.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "+9 in active defense."

As for what constitutes a "typical" defense:

A completely ordinary person, in decent shape, without any impairments, will have a dodge of 8.

Someone with minimal combat training or experience, like a militia member or city guard, will probably have a weapon skill around 10-11, for a parry of 8. If they have a shield, that's a block and parry of 9-11 (Depends on the size of the shield). They probably don't have combat reflexes, but bump them up by 1 if they do.

A professional soldier, like a common mercenary or man-at-arms, might have a skill around 12, and is more likely to have combat reflexes. They probably have a parry of 10. If they have a shield, that's parry and block of 11-13.

A skilled professional, like an experienced knight or your fairly normal adventurer, might have a skill around 15, and is very likely to have combat reflexes. That's parry 11. With a shield, parry/block is 12-14.

Experienced adventurers might have skills up to 18 or so; parry 13, or parry/block 14-16 with a shield.

And finally, you can might find some with master levels of skill. At 20, your parry is going to be 14, and with a shield your parry/block is 15-17.

So, what is "typical?" If you mean adventurers, ranging from fresh to experienced, then the "typical" defense lies in a range from 11-13, occasionally up to 16. If you mean the most commonly faced enemies (Excluding "bosses"), then we're probably talking foes on the level of common soldiers through skilled professionals, in which case the "typical" defense is roughly 10-11, with the more defensive shielded opponents getting as high as 14.

Defense of 8-9 is only "typical" if your typical enemy is unarmed farmers or poorly trained levies, which isn't the kind of enemies I'd expect most experienced adventurers to be facing.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon

Beats, feints, ruses, deceptive attack, rapid strikes, dual weapon attacks, counterattacks, evaluate, maybe even some ripostes.

Also, don't forget committed and defensive attacks, reverse grip, retreat, slip, and the dozens of other options.

Now add terrain, lighting, fatigue, relative numbers, support from other characters, etc, etc...

You're not going to come up with a formulaic way of simulating GURPS combat accurately to the way it plays out without ridiculous levels of complexity

Right. This is especially true given that D&D abstracts much of this and at best a D&D combat round is 6 times as long as a GURPS combat round.

D&D tried to go for such complexity with 4e and totally dropped the ball, coming up with an insanely complex and convoluted combat system.

D&D4e combat made advanced GURPS combat look like Sonic the freaking Hedgehog on an overdose of speed. I mean when it take 8 hours to fight goblins you know you have FUBARed the combat system. There is a reason why people rag on D&D4e combat.

[2097]

Thank you so much for taking another careful look at this.♥

Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon

Probably the greatest of those problems is that by doing so, the converted character you're making doesn't fit into the world in the same place the original character did.

Right. But it's by design that fitting in the same place is not a priority. I can either try to match that, or try to match the things I wanted to try to match.

I could later try to make a formula based on the reverse priority. Completely ignore trying to match outcomes and instead trying to match, the, uh, "what's a typical D&D accountant". But I want to try this first.

Now, my formula is not carved in granite yet. It's a work in progress.

Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon

To me, that's the important part: it produces characters of vastly different world-relative power than the source character, and it does it in such a way that the relative strengths between two individuals can change dramatically.

To the extent that it happens outside of the parameters I decided to care about (listed above), I don't care, but to the extent that it happens inside the parameters, I do care.

Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon

They both have the same attack bonus (+12) despite him being much more skilled.

Right. Because 16 is 98.15% and 20 is 100% and the d20's granularity is courser than that difference.

Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon

So how does combat go? Well, let's assume he doesn't just take off and start blasting her with lightning.

But that's absolutely what he would do, though. That's how we run D&D fights in our group all the time. "A hoard of zombies on the island? We get on our boat and start zapping them with spells." Or in the other group where I was a player, we put out trip wires and glue and when the skeletons appeared we cast the Color Spray spell on them and then bashed them.

Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon

Your conversion would make a GURPS pony able to wrestle a tarrasque and win.

Well, you can't because of two reasons, the target can't be two or more size categories larger and you need a free hand.

What I want though is to be able to have sort of the same probabilities when they attempt to do what they were designed to attempt to do.

Now, seeing that skills as high as 16, 20, even for defense, makes it clear that I am missing something in how GURPS works.

ST 18 can carry slightly more than the D&D pony which is at Str 15. That's fine.
And then a horse has ST 25 and the D&D horse has 32 (for lifting). Also fine.

Let's say an orc is trying to grapple the horse and the horse is trying to break free. That's when the GURPS pony would be much more successful at escaping, +12 instead of +2. So, the "use ST for Strength" is not right. Thank you for this. I should want use DX (or skills, preferably) for physical things and IQ (or skills/per/will/etc, preferably) for mental things.

Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon

"Hire this character because he's converted from a different system and therefor is just better" seems like the most horrible metagamey sort of thing, and to me is a pretty clear sign that the conversion has problems.

So the idea is that I plop down something like Atlantis and they'd be like wow, these Atlantean accountants are all… Uh.. Wait, I was gonna go with an example for a statblock from that book but the section (The Orichalcum Age) only has one character, the Emperor, and all his stats are all reasonable. Spear-12, Staff-10, Block-7 and the like.

Same for the Nazaraad bird monster or the pendulum ghoul or the Strikeworm from Creatures of the Night 2. They all seem reasonable to fight to me.

Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon

For example, the half-dragon fighter above can drop her block as low as 11 every single turn.

With Deceptive Attack? Or?

Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon

Beats, feints, ruses, deceptive attack, rapid strikes, dual weapon attacks, counterattacks, evaluate, maybe even some ripostes.

Also, don't forget committed and defensive attacks, reverse grip, retreat, slip, and the dozens of other options.

Now add terrain, lighting, fatigue, relative numbers, support from other characters, etc, etc...

But in order to get some sort of overview for how GURPS combat typically play out, I want to understand the math of the most typically used of these options.

What effect does

• beats
• feints
• ruses
• deceptive attack
• rapid strikes
• dual weapon attacks
• counterattacks
• evaluate
• maybe even some ripostes
• committed attacks
• defensive attacks
• reverse grip
• retreat
• slip
• dozens of other options

typically have on the math of how long a combat takes, and how difficult it is for someone to be taken out?

Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "+9 in active defense."

That plus was a typo for sure. Dodge 9, Block 8, that sort of thing. That's what I had been seeing in books. D'Artagnan in GURPS Swashbucklers, Move 6, Dodge 6, Parry 12.

Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon

You're not going to come up with a formulaic way of simulating GURPS combat accurately to the way it plays out without ridiculous levels of complexity.

…

See, it's frustrating to me that when people say "Oh, GURPS is easy, just start with GURPS Lite" which does not have any of these things. Hence the never-ending whacking combats that just doesn't work.

This is what I always do! It's the sunk cost fallacy with me and GURPS. It started with GURPS Discworld which had the Lite in the back and then it seemed clear that Lite wasn't really enough to explain how to run the game so I got the Basic set and then that wasn't enough etc etc. And it's a cycle with me, I swear it off and then I get suckered back in. This time it's gonna be good. Or, I think, this time I can use a game I know works for me and my group and use GURPS supplements with it by porting them over. My mom would get me GURPS books whenever she would visit the capital; that was 25 years ago and I am now the age that she was then, and those books are great fun to read but I only rarely can use them. And I got suckered in by the recent PDF Kickstarter and got a bunch of my old faves and some that I've always wanted to get.

Illuminati, Creatures of the Night 1 (for 3e) and CthulhuPunk were exceptions because I used the adventure seeds from them (not any stats or similar content). Buuut that's no different from any novel or short story.

[Phoenix_Dragon]

Originally Posted by 2097

Right. Because 16 is 98.15% and 20 is 100% and the d20's granularity is courser than that difference.

First off: both of them are usually rolling well at well below 98%, because they're spending some of their high skill for other effects, which means they're not hitting at the rate that your conversion suggests.

Second: in GURPS, his skill edge means he has significantly more options in the fight and can do things she doesn't have an answer to (To the point that he's hitting her 2 or 3 times more easily in an actual fight), yet your conversion makes them equally skilled on the offense.

But that's absolutely what he would do, though.

Yeah, and it's what he'd do in a normal fight in GURPS, too, but that's completely missing the point. I excluded it because I wanted to see how your conversion would handle the comparison of martial skills. If he lacked flight and lightning breath, that wouldn't change a thing about your conversion. Your conversion said that, if he didn't use his flight or lightning, he would lose decisively, while in GURPS in the same situation it would be a close match.

Well, you can't because of two reasons, the target can't be two or more size categories larger and you need a free hand.

...Fine. A Tarrasque could try to wrestle a GURPS pony, but would lose. Better?

I should want use DX (or skills, preferably) for physical things and IQ (or skills/per/will/etc, preferably) for mental things.

No, that doesn't solve the problem either. It just makes it less common, but also produces weird things, like how it's much easier to keep a draft horse grappled than the average human. Or how a housecat will have an easier time breaking out of a person's grasp than a tiger or elephant.

With Deceptive Attack? Or?

Yes, with deceptive attack.

But in order to get some sort of overview for how GURPS combat typically play out, I want to understand the math of the most typically used of these options.

What effect does

• beats
• feints
• ruses
• deceptive attack
• rapid strikes
• dual weapon attacks
• counterattacks
• evaluate
• maybe even some ripostes
• committed attacks
• defensive attacks
• reverse grip
• retreat
• slip
• dozens of other options

typically have on the math of how long a combat takes, and how difficult it is for someone to be taken out?

Uhhh... you kinda just asked me to sum up about a quarter of the Campaigns book and at least half of Martial Arts. You're not going to get a simple formula for how long a fight lasts with those options. Hell, you're not going to get a singular formula. I can't even start to work out what kind of conditionals you'd need to get a sensible answer. I'm not even sure where to start the math to work out what a reasonable formula (Or more likely, set of formulas) would be, and that's just for an infinite-flat-plane, 1-on-1 duel. It's so spectacularly many levels of "it depends." I'm pretty sure that mathematically solving chess would be a less daunting task, because it has so many fewer moving parts.

The individual pieces are pretty simple, but the math of trying to combine them all into one whole is just a bit mind-boggling. If you're really wanting the converted characters to accurately match their odds of success in GURPS... well, they're not.

That plus was a typo for sure. Dodge 9, Block 8, that sort of thing. That's what I had been seeing in books. D'Artagnan in GURPS Swashbucklers, Move 6, Dodge 6, Parry 12.

Erm, that's a third edition book, isn't it? It's going to have different numbers. In particular, the way defenses are calculated was changed. As were many of the costs that go into what skill level you have.

See, it's frustrating to me that when people say "Oh, GURPS is easy, just start with GURPS Lite" which does not have any of these things. Hence the never-ending whacking combats that just doesn't work.

GURPS Lite is perfectly sufficient to run a game to GURPS Lite levels of detail. The Basic Set is perfectly sufficient to run things at Basic Set. Getting all the Martial Arts and etc are sufficient for the etc...

GURPS was designed as a modular system where you get and use the rules that are desired for a campaign, and no more. You basically toggle options on and off. I like detailed fights, so I play with with almost all the Martial Arts rules. But of the stuff I was talking about here, almost all of it is from the Basic Set (Deceptive Attack in particular). The rest were Martial Arts, and mostly made small differences (She loses the beat that doesn't work well against him, and he loses a bit of defense by missing out on defensive grip and defensive attacks).

But this objection just seems like a non sequitur. Even if we limit it to just what's in the Basic Set, the statement still stands: you're not going to make a formulaic simulation of GURPS combat without a ridiculous level of complexity. Most of that complexity comes from deciding what options to use and what the situation is. Playing out the fights is pretty quick and easy, but modelling all of those little variables and decisions mathematically is just a nightmarish proposition. And I'm into programming because I like math and complex logic structures...

[Phoenix_Dragon]

Originally Posted by maximara

D&D tried to go for such complexity with 4e and totally dropped the ball, coming up with an insanely complex and convoluted combat system.

The funny thing is, the system itself is actually fairly simple at its core. The problem is that every part in combat touches every other part in its own unique way with its own unique timers, so you've got an essentially exponential growth of interactions. The pieces are simple, but the interactions between them are very much not. And there are so many of them because every class adds even more. Honestly, the whole thing reminds me of some of the horrible things you can accidentally do with programming with some very simple code used in very not-wise ways...

By comparison, GURPS has a slightly more complex base, but the pieces are standardized and the interactions between them are generally very simple, with very few that require tracking beyond the instant of interaction. So it's quicker, easier to run, and more detailed.

I liked some of the things 4e did, conceptually, but the sum product was kind of a train wreck. At least they seem to have thoroughly learned their lesson with 5e. I certainly didn't expect that impressive of a turn-around.

[2097]

Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon

they're spending some of their high skill for other effects

But that's exactly the kind of things I don't know about! It's hard to get an overview.

Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon

...Fine. A Tarrasque could try to wrestle a GURPS pony, but would lose. Better?

Oh, you're right. I was missing the pony-grappling forest for the hands-&-size-categories trees there.

Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon

Yes, with deceptive attack.

So deceptive attack is something almost all characters can use and it does affect the odds a lot. Maybe it can be a proxy for other high skill effects, at least as a start.

Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon

GURPS Lite is perfectly sufficient to run a game to GURPS Lite levels of detail.

That has definitely not been my experience. It becomes a never-ending whack fest, hits never seem to land, it's just not fun to play out fights with that system.

Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon

I like detailed fights, so I play with with almost all the Martial Arts rules.

It can be cool to make D&D maneuvers inspired by maneuvers in, but I can't be expected to fold all of Martial Arts all into the conversion on the pre-conversion side.

Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon

But of the stuff I was talking about here, almost all of it is from the Basic Set (Deceptive Attack in particular).

So that's what I would want to focus on. Maybe just taking Deceptive Attack into account would go along way. It's not in the first Basic Set book so I would have to bring in advanced combat.

[mr beer]

Originally Posted by 2097

That has definitely not been my experience. It becomes a never-ending whack fest, hits never seem to land, it's just not fun to play out fights with that system.

Are you saying combatants can't hit, or that combatants always defend?

For a quick fix, if it's the former, increase PC skills. If it's the latter, decrease opponent's skills. Also combatants shouldn't play fair, it's best to gang up on people who are good at defending. IMO, GURPS 4e melee combat is hugely improved by Deceptive Attack. It's one of those optional rules that becomes almost ubiquitous.

EDIT

For years now, most of what I GM is D&D setting (Greyhawk) with GURPS as the system. So I do quite a lot of conversion work. I've found that the most satisfying approach for me personally is not to attempt to emulate every element of D&D but rather port general themes and allow differences to emerge naturally given that I'm using GURPS because I much prefer the crunch.

I don't really see the point of porting GURPS back to D&D. D&D has already got so much more material, I'm not sure what you can really add from GURPS. But if you do want to convert stuff over, I would simply decide on x points = y levels and/or CR and just pick an appropriate D&D NPC or monster.