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Old 09-19-2020, 03:11 PM   #71
Ulzgoroth
 
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Default Re: Issues with Retreating Dodge

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Originally Posted by MrFix View Post
I already said the idea is to deflect the weapon, not the shot, the shot misses regardless as long as you knock it aside. Please do not make me repeat it once again.
I do not know what in my post you think that addresses.
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Old 09-19-2020, 03:17 PM   #72
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Default Re: Issues with Retreating Dodge

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
So the archer only needs maybe two shots to win the fight, but the melee attacker can't win in 5? What kind of skill and defense values are you envisioning here?
I feel like those have been spell out plenty already, but I’ll be even more detailed.

Pursuer options (Axe-18, no shield)-
Move and Attack: -4 to hit and skill cap 9
All-Out Attack: +4 to hit, no defenses
Committed Attack (2 Step): net +0 to hit, can’t defend with weapon AND other defenses are at -2
Active Defense: Dodge 10 (8 with Committed, none with AOA)

Retreater options (Bow-18, fast-draw-16)-
Attack: point blank at face, Bow-13
Active Defense: Dodge 14 including retreat

After several failed Move and Attacks and an arrow to the face, pursuer succeed on one of two All-Out Attacks, not enough to wound. Then got another arrow to the face to finish him.
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Old 09-19-2020, 04:09 PM   #73
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Default Re: Issues with Retreating Dodge

Several people are assuming the archer has heroic archer and fast draw, yet assume the swordsman has nothing but their sword.

If the Archer has Heroic Archer and Fast Draw then the swordsman also has Weapon Master.

First turn the archer will step back and ready the arrow and bow to shoot next round at full skill.

Swordsman (SM) rushes forward using AoD increase dodge allowing forward movement of 1/2 BM.

Second Turn the Archer steps back again and shoots. SM dodges

SM Rushes forward again, using only move to get into Close Combat.

Third Turn the Archer has 2 options, step back and attempt a rapid attack to ready the bow and shoot on the same turn at range 1 or attempt to run away to get more distance, but that means the next turn the SM can run up to them still. So they choose to step and attempt a rapid strike to ready and shoot, assume they make it. SM can attempt a dodge or even a parry to parry the bow to throw the shot off line, they can even spend a point of FP for +2 to defense.

At range 1 the SM should feint, then step back into CC.

4th Turn, Archer must again step back and attack at penalty. SM will do the same thing like last time.

SM will now step forward, AoA Determined, and make it deceptive. Thanks to the first feint the Archer will have some penalty, Deceptive makes it at least another -2. Target an arm and not the torso. Odds are high that this will hit, which means a crippled arm, Archer will not be able to shoot anymore. Or do a normal attack instead and hope it is enough.

There should be no reason for the SM to lose to an Archer within range unless you make the Archer better than the SM. In which case it is no longer about tactics or rules.

An Archer that does not have Heroic Archer will lose almost always against a SM of equal skill.
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Old 09-19-2020, 05:24 PM   #74
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Default Re: Issues with Retreating Dodge

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Originally Posted by zoncxs View Post
Several people are assuming the archer has heroic archer and fast draw, yet assume the swordsman has nothing but their sword.

If the Archer has Heroic Archer and Fast Draw then the swordsman also has Weapon Master.
And on the flipside, the archer and swordy without;

Archer is drawing, knocking, and firing every third turn without aiming. They are moving backwards in some area that they are, at best, relying on knowledge to move through. Arrows do thrust impaling damage and are limited.

Swordy is attacking probably twice as often, can often maintain the benefits of either melee or close combat, and can clearly see where they are going since they are always moving to a front hex. Swords can do swing cutting damage and is effectively unlimited.

But I think one of the most important parts; The archer can't parry. If we are assuming the two are similar in narrowness (say, Skill 14 in respective weapon skills) then the archer will likely have to rely on worse defenses.

That's probably bottom line bow vs sword. The swordy is further given more options with how to control the situation, including knowing where the archer in in their cycle (Ready for arrow, Ready to knock, Attack) and can take advantage of All Outs, both on attack and defense. Considering All Out Attack: Extra exists, the swordy is likely getting even more attacks while the archer just can't keep up.

If we scale both up equally, things tend to stay on the swordy's side; ST14? Swing is much better up to at least ST22 (past 'max'). Heroic Archer? Weapon Master generally beats it and again makes it that much easier for the archer to be downed. Armor? Better for the sword, it hampers thr imp damage more. Fast Draw Arrow? Swordy can carry a large shield with a single point in Shield and get a +3 to parry fairly easily. Targeting? Imp loses the multiplier when going for nonlethal shots, swordy can likely break the bow with one shot.

Really, what you want with a ranged weapon is obviously range but not just horizontally; Up a floor and the swordy has to climb or otherwise find a quick way up. Any higher and the swordy would optimally retreat.

You also don't need to be attacking every turn. All-Out Defense can keep you alive and realistic combatants really can go down in one hit (not die, but a major wound can make someone give up and no one wants to fight past 0HP especially if the opponent is willing to accept surrender).

Also, there's very little flat planes you can fight in. If we're assuming TL4 or less, even roads aren't that well made, plains aren't flat, dungeons have anything from rubble to slime to ruins, forests have stuff everywhere, etc. If you're at an arena or in a fairly open well kept place (such as a throne room) then the archer can continually retreat for a while. Even boats aren't great just because of sway.

We're also assuming move is merely 5. Any more and you can likely run around the archer. If you have a party, then just get the archer retreating toward them. Flank them.
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Old 09-19-2020, 05:26 PM   #75
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Default Re: Issues with Retreating Dodge

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Originally Posted by bearit View Post
I feel like those have been spell out plenty already, but I’ll be even more detailed.

Pursuer options (Axe-18, no shield)-
Move and Attack: -4 to hit and skill cap 9
All-Out Attack: +4 to hit, no defenses
Committed Attack (2 Step): net +0 to hit, can’t defend with weapon AND other defenses are at -2
Active Defense: Dodge 10 (8 with Committed, none with AOA)

Retreater options (Bow-18, fast-draw-16)-
Attack: point blank at face, Bow-13
Active Defense: Dodge 14 including retreat

After several failed Move and Attacks and an arrow to the face, pursuer succeed on one of two All-Out Attacks, not enough to wound. Then got another arrow to the face to finish him.
"Not enough to wound" I certainly appreciate that Broadsword which is SW+1 cutting is unable to wound, but Thr+2 Longbow is able to kill a man in two hits. How about we change it up to make sense for a moment.

ST12 warrior with broadsword deals 1d+3 cutting with a broadsword (average of 6.5, x1.5 for cutting for total of 9,75, average is 9).
ST12 archer has 12 HP. In one hit he loses 2/3 of his HP.

ST12 archer with a longbow deals 1d+1 imp, average of 4.5 x2=9
ST12 warrior has 12 HP and in one hit he loses 2/3 of his HP.

It's nonsensical to pretend that Broadsword warrior somehow deals less damage. Even better, he can attack 6 times by the time the archer fires two times.
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Old 09-19-2020, 06:57 PM   #76
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Default Re: Issues with Retreating Dodge

Quote:
Originally Posted by bearit View Post
I feel like those have been spell out plenty already, but I’ll be even more detailed.

Pursuer options (Axe-18, no shield)-
Move and Attack: -4 to hit and skill cap 9
All-Out Attack: +4 to hit, no defenses
Committed Attack (2 Step): net +0 to hit, can’t defend with weapon AND other defenses are at -2
Active Defense: Dodge 10 (8 with Committed, none with AOA)

Retreater options (Bow-18, fast-draw-16)-
Attack: point blank at face, Bow-13
Active Defense: Dodge 14 including retreat

After several failed Move and Attacks and an arrow to the face, pursuer succeed on one of two All-Out Attacks, not enough to wound. Then got another arrow to the face to finish him.
Note that the Archer in this example has a better base dodge (implying more points in DX and HT) and assuming the same DX has something like 16 more points in those skills than the axeman has in Axes.

A fairer test would have both having the same Dodge (and underlying stats), and the axeman having Axe-18 and Shield and using an Axe and Shield.

Basically you've put a less talented and less skilled melee guy against a superior opponent with a ranged weapon out in the open. Even if the 'Retreat and Shoot' trick hadn't worked, the Archer is most likely faster and could simply kite the Axeman to death anyway by running away anytime the Axeman got within 10 yards, and aiming for the Axeman's legs until he crippled one.

EDIT: Also, that last comment about the damage taken makes it sound very like it came down to the axeman rolling a bad damage roll, whilst the archer didn't (twice).
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Last edited by Rupert; 09-19-2020 at 10:35 PM.
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Old 09-19-2020, 08:57 PM   #77
Ulzgoroth
 
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Default Re: Issues with Retreating Dodge

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Originally Posted by MrFix View Post
"Not enough to wound" I certainly appreciate that Broadsword which is SW+1 cutting is unable to wound, but Thr+2 Longbow is able to kill a man in two hits. How about we change it up to make sense for a moment.

ST12 warrior with broadsword deals 1d+3 cutting with a broadsword (average of 6.5, x1.5 for cutting for total of 9,75, average is 9).
ST12 archer has 12 HP. In one hit he loses 2/3 of his HP.

ST12 archer with a longbow deals 1d+1 imp, average of 4.5 x2=9
ST12 warrior has 12 HP and in one hit he loses 2/3 of his HP.

It's nonsensical to pretend that Broadsword warrior somehow deals less damage. Even better, he can attack 6 times by the time the archer fires two times.
Based on the archer targetting the face and the axeman rolling too little damage to wound, I'm inferring that both characters are outfitted with some sort of armor. It just seemingly doesn't do anything to help the melee fighter because it's apparently open-faced and the archer has plenty of extra skill to spare for bypassing it.
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Old 09-19-2020, 10:21 PM   #78
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Default Re: Issues with Retreating Dodge

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Based on the archer targetting the face and the axeman rolling too little damage to wound, I'm inferring that both characters are outfitted with some sort of armor. It just seemingly doesn't do anything to help the melee fighter because it's apparently open-faced and the archer has plenty of extra skill to spare for bypassing it.
That is inappropriate. The average damage is average because it happens most commonly. Basing your comparison on statistical outlier is just dishonest.

As I've said, average damage of an ST12 Broadswordman is 6.5. For this damage to 'fail to wound', one would have to wear a 6 DR plate armor. Why is an archer wearing plate armor? Why is the guy fighting a plate-wearing archer without a good helmet?

And since we constantly speak of Axe, most axes START their damage at sw+2, and better/bigger versions go on to do sw+3, sw+4, sw+5 etc. Which appropriately means 7.5, 8.5, 9.5, 10.5 and 11.5 damage BEFORE x1.5 cutting multiplier.

If an archer is able to simply tank this with 'no wounding', then the entire comparison is just biased for no sensible reason.
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Master: Kromm vs PK

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Old 09-19-2020, 10:29 PM   #79
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Default Re: Issues with Retreating Dodge

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Originally Posted by MrFix View Post
I already said the idea is to deflect the weapon, not the shot, the shot misses regardless as long as you knock it aside. Please do not make me repeat it once again.
It feels like if someone parries the rifle that maybe the rifleman should get to roll something like a parry to avoid wasting his shot, given this happens prior to him firing.
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Old 09-19-2020, 10:37 PM   #80
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Default Re: Issues with Retreating Dodge

God I really wanted to avoid doing this, but this is how it sanely unfolds.

Assuming Archer retreats/steps back and doesn't just kite:
Warrior goes first, they're 4 yards apart.
Round 1:
Warrior moves into close combat via Move maneuver.
Archer steps back and fires his bow, parry attempt
Round 2:
Warrior performs AoA (Determined), Deceptive 4, Swing axe at leg (Effective SL 12). Archer Defends at 14-4=10. Warrior moves into close combat.
Archer steps back and draws an arrow.
Round 3:
Warrior performs AoA (Determined), Deceptive 4, Swing axe at leg (Effective SL 12). Archer Defends at 14-4=10. Warrior moves into close combat.
Archer steps back and nocks an arrow.
Round 4:
Warrior performs Attack, Deceptive 3, Swing axe at torso. Archer Defends at 14-3=11. Warrior moves into 1 yard range.
Archer steps back and fires an arrow, parry attempt
Round 5:
Warrior performs AoA (Determined), Deceptive 4, Swing axe at leg (Effective SL 12). Archer Defends at 14-4=10. Warrior moves into close combat.
Archer steps back and draws an arrow.
Round 6:
Warrior performs AoA (Determined), Deceptive 4, Swing axe at leg (Effective SL 12). Archer Defends at 14-4=10. Warrior moves into close combat.
Archer steps back and nocks an arrow.
Round 7:
Warrior performs Attack, Deceptive 3, Swing axe at torso. Archer Defends at 14-3=11. Warrior moves into close combat.
Archer steps back and fires an arrow, parry attempt

Conclusion:
During the 7 round encounter, warrior made 6 attack rolls at respectable SL 12. He defended only 3 times at his full melee Parry, which is 12.
During 7 round encounter, archer made 3 attack rolls at SL 18-5=13. He defended 6 times with penalized defenses. 4 times at Dodge 10, 2 times at Dodge 11.

Statistically, the chance of archer to succeed is drastically lower than of warrior's. If he misses his first shot, he's toast.
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Your level of GURPS proficiency:
Pedestrian: 3e vs 4e
Proficient: Early 4e vs Late 4e
Master: Kromm vs PK

GURPS: Shooting things for fun and profit

Last edited by MrFix; 09-19-2020 at 10:43 PM.
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