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Old 10-19-2020, 12:32 PM   #1
Gigermann
 
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Default [MA,LT] Estoc+Defensive Grip+Eye Slit?

Given:
Normal penalty to hit the eye is -9; normal penalty to hit the eye slit/chink is -10. Using an estoc with a half-sword Defensive Grip option (unless I've missed something) is -4 to "targeting chinks in armor".

Problem:
I almost hate to ask, since it appears to be an obvious Murphy, but: I presume the "chinks" reduction for estoc+DefGrip does not reduce the overall penalty below the "normal" penalty for the location-in-question? (In this case, reducing the penalty to hit the eye to -6, well below the un-armored -9.)

Second, how would you expect the Targeted Attack (Thrust, Eye Slit) to interact with the overall penalty situation? Max improvement for the Technique would be -5 (half of -10). Does the estoc+DefGrip improve that to -1? Seems excessive? Maybe not? (It's definitely not cheap.) Or, if the above is a Murphy and doesn't improve beyond -9, would you only give a -1 improvement to the TA technique (total, -4)?

(Disclaimer: apologies if this has been asked & answered before; I failed to locate it—I did look :P )

Last edited by Gigermann; 10-19-2020 at 12:53 PM.
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Old 10-19-2020, 05:30 PM   #2
AlexanderHowl
 
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Default Re: [MA,LT] Estoc+Defensive Grip+Eye Slit?

Defensive Grip gives -2 to attack but reduces the penalty to hit chinks in armor by two, effectively resulting in a +0, meaning that the Estoc becomes the only real factor.
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Old 10-19-2020, 06:39 PM   #3
Gigermann
 
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Default Re: [MA,LT] Estoc+Defensive Grip+Eye Slit?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
Defensive Grip gives -2 to attack but reduces the penalty to hit chinks in armor by two, effectively resulting in a +0, meaning that the Estoc becomes the only real factor.
Many of the RL examples of estocs that I've seen are "longsword" length, and would be treated as two-handed; but I do see that the example in MA is one-handed, and so I suppose that would be correct. I hadn't processed that.

It doesn't really change the overall problem, though—still lowers the eye penalty below normal—but it does make it less "extreme."

Last edited by Gigermann; 10-19-2020 at 07:36 PM.
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Old 10-20-2020, 02:58 AM   #4
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: [MA,LT] Estoc+Defensive Grip+Eye Slit?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
Defensive Grip gives -2 to attack but reduces the penalty to hit chinks in armor by two, effectively resulting in a +0, meaning that the Estoc becomes the only real factor.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigermann View Post
Many of the RL examples of estocs that I've seen are "longsword" length, and would be treated as two-handed; but I do see that the example in MA is one-handed, and so I suppose that would be correct. I hadn't processed that.

It doesn't really change the overall problem, though—still lowers the eye penalty below normal—but it does make it less "extreme."

There's a benefit of the sword defensive grip aka "half-swording" that is sometimes not obvious but more than counteracts the -2 to hit in certain circumstances, which is that it drops reach to C. This means you can use your reach 1 Estoc in Close combat which you'd either not be able to do at all or would be at a -4 skill penalty, without the C. (Depending on what rules you use for close combat).

Obviously you are limited to C reach, but that C reach itself can be a benefit or a flaw depending on your situation and your opponent!

So the actual comparison would be:

Reach 1 Estoc at C range without defensive grip = -4* reach 1 at C, +2 Estoc armour chinks bonus, -10 eye slit = -12

Reach 1 Estoc at C range with defensive grip = -2 defensive grip to hit pen, +2 defensive grip armour chinks bonus, +2 Estoc armour chinks bonus, -10 eye slit pen = -8

Reach 1 Estoc at 1 range = +2 Estoc armour chinks bonus, -10 eye slit pen = -8

So just in terms of hitting it's a wash between Estoc in normal grip at reach 1 and Estoc in a defensive grip at reach C. But of course being in close combat with a reach C Estoc can bring other benefits like if your opponent has a weapon which doesn't include reach C, or you are forced into Close combat with your normally reach 1 weapon. The long weapons in close combat penalty is to skill not just hitting, so -4 here is also -2 to parry.

(you still have to ready the grip though)



On longer Estocs, yep definitely there were longer Estocs out there. I think you can probably make one using LTC2. (it would change some of the stuff above as going defensive would rob you of more reach, but it would counteract more long weapons in close combat penalties)



On the Eye slit with chink bonus vs. eye target mod.

Honestly my view is that a lot of the physical reasons why the Estoc is +2 better at finding a way through an eye slit don't go away when finding it's way through an eye not behind an eyeslit. I'd just let the +2 work for both. The eye will still be -7 to hit.

If you find that change is enough to mean your players are all suddenly impaling eyeballs all the time when previously they couldn't, that don't use that idea. But I think it solves the specific question and also (IMO) makes sense in general.

I wouldn't extend that rule to all location penalties for game balance reasons as I think the -7 is still enough of a penalty to mean this is still a rare event for all but the most skilled (and I think different locations get less a like for like comparisons as eye behind slit and eye and the Estoc's physical characteristics)


Edit: if you don't like the above idea another way to go is to make the eye behind eye slit -11 not -10, and so -9 with the +2 bonus from the Estoc




*using the long weapons in close combat rules in MA, otherwise this isn't even an option!
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Last edited by Tomsdad; 10-21-2020 at 12:39 AM.
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