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Old 10-03-2020, 01:15 PM   #21
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: How to avoid Retreating Dodge Spam

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
I don't think that does anything to help overcome the active defense bonus for retreating.

Its helpful if your actual problem is with positioning, not with active defense rolls, but that doesn't seem to be the subject here.
Yeah the OP isn't complaining about the retreat bonus so much as being pressured to take Committed / Move-and / All-Out attacks to attack while narrowing the gap and then having those three options' defense penalties being exploited by the target.

Maybe it'd be easier if we just allowed "extra step for -2 to your attack" as an option for any step maneuver instead of just Committed Attack ones?

Or, like earlier, just obligate that retreats be paid for, meaning defenders need to 'leave one in the tank' to do it. I think that's the simplest idea. Then give an EE option to get a bonus step, similar to how EE can improve sprinting speed.
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Old 10-03-2020, 02:49 PM   #22
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Default Re: How to avoid Retreating Dodge Spam

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Yeah the OP isn't complaining about the retreat bonus so much as being pressured to take Committed / Move-and / All-Out attacks to attack while narrowing the gap and then having those three options' defense penalties being exploited by the target.

Maybe it'd be easier if we just allowed "extra step for -2 to your attack" as an option for any step maneuver instead of just Committed Attack ones?

Or, like earlier, just obligate that retreats be paid for, meaning defenders need to 'leave one in the tank' to do it. I think that's the simplest idea. Then give an EE option to get a bonus step, similar to how EE can improve sprinting speed.
You have a point, from the OP.

Of course, that doesn't work when it's being done (as described) by both sides in a 1-1 battle, because if both sides are backpedaling they'll almost instantly wind up fully disengaged, staring at each other from across the field. It only works when one of the fighters doesn't mind giving lots of ground, and the other one isn't willing to permit the fight to end in disengagement.
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Old 10-03-2020, 10:22 PM   #23
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Default Re: How to avoid Retreating Dodge Spam

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You get the retreat bonus vs ALL of a single character's melee attacks during the turn.
Oh you are right, that was slipping my mind!
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Old 10-04-2020, 01:21 PM   #24
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Default Re: How to avoid Retreating Dodge Spam

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
You have a point, from the OP.

Of course, that doesn't work when it's being done (as described) by both sides in a 1-1 battle, because if both sides are backpedaling they'll almost instantly wind up fully disengaged, staring at each other from across the field. It only works when one of the fighters doesn't mind giving lots of ground, and the other one isn't willing to permit the fight to end in disengagement.
Backpedaling can be an oversimplification, because even in basic set you could retreat into your side hexes too and still get the bonus, so you could actually do a circling motion.
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Old 10-04-2020, 01:51 PM   #25
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Default Re: How to avoid Retreating Dodge Spam

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Backpedaling can be an oversimplification, because even in basic set you could retreat into your side hexes too and still get the bonus, so you could actually do a circling motion.
True, but if you are both stepping back as well as retreating you will almost immediately stop having a melee fight in progress. Opening distance that your opponent has to cross to continue the engagement is the whole point of that tactic!

In the situation where one fighter is chasing the other, yeah, it may be quite possible for the retreating fighter to circle around rather than being driven off into the distance indefinitely. (Which of those is the safer option is a circumstantial question.)
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Old 10-04-2020, 02:25 PM   #26
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Default Re: How to avoid Retreating Dodge Spam

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True, but if you are both stepping back as well as retreating you will almost immediately stop having a melee fight in progress. Opening distance that your opponent has to cross to continue the engagement is the whole point of that tactic!

In the situation where one fighter is chasing the other, yeah, it may be quite possible for the retreating fighter to circle around rather than being driven off into the distance indefinitely. (Which of those is the safer option is a circumstantial question.)
Slips blur this a bit since you can now retreat toward opponents instead of away from them.

You know... "Defense engages someone who isn't attacking (-1)" is something Kromm wrote up as a special benefit at http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...9&postcount=15

That might be a reasonable enough thing (roll dodge triggered by anything an opponent does) and the -1 reflects just having an instinct to dodge when perceiving an attack giving a relative +1 due to self-preservation.

If using perception rules for attacks I think that would still apply, except now it's perception vs anything. You still need to perceive something to react to, to explain why you're "dodging" (so as to get your extra step on a retreat) at that particular moment.

Failure would still mean you got the step, but you took it AFTER the effect of whatever you're reacting to.

This seems sort of like what Sacrificial Dodge might be (technically they're still attacking, but they're not attacking YOU) and the lack of the -1 might be something like +1 offset from the drawback "must use a retreat even if all is already in your hex, and get no bonuses for it"
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Old 10-04-2020, 04:26 PM   #27
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Default Re: How to avoid Retreating Dodge Spam

Simple strategy to counter PCs over-using retreats: Have your opponents be a combination of ranged and melee attackers, with the melee fighters screening the ranged. The PCs *have* to force their way through the melee fighters to stop from being riddled with arrows or ranged magic attacks.
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