An Alternative to Tech Level: Milleu

[TGLS]

So I've been thinking a bit about the strengths and weaknesses of Tech Levels.

Strengths
- Useful for defining settings in broad strokes
- Helps sort "catalog" books
- Helps define characters who move between very different levels of technology (by making high technology very expensive, and defining the inter-technological defaults)
- Useful for gadgeteers

Weaknesses
- Borderlands of technology result in lots of arguments and confusion (i.e. Is the Apple II TL7? Is the early IBM PC TL8? Do the years matter? Should there really be a cliff between the two?)
- Do technologies that don't change in user facing ways actually change in terms of difficulty? (i.e. is a dugout canoe and a fancy fibreglass canoe all that different in terms of paddling to destination?)
- Divergent and Superscience TLs are confusing and result in arguments. (i.e. is this setting with anti-gravity just TL7^? Is this steampunk setting TL5+1 because it has things comparable to primitive cars, or TL5+5 because it has fairly advanced AI?)

Then I started to wonder why skills like Fishing or Accounting have no TL attached to them, while others like Geography and Intelligence Analysis do. Surely fishermen who operate modern fishing trawlers and accounts who let QuickBooks do the heavy lifting will have a lot more trouble without their toys than a geographer or an analyst.


Milleu
So here's the "solution" I came up with. TL is done away with entirely; the only person who has anything to do with it is the GM while building the setting. All TL'd skills don't take any TL next to them. Instead, the GM defines a number of Milleus that exist in a setting.

Every character gets one milleu for free (like a Cultural Familiarity) and the cost of a particular milleu depends on how similar it is to milleus the character has (also like Cultural Familiarity). The costs of milleus are up to the GM, but the main guide is as follows:
- Nobody pays anything for irrelevant Milleus. Anyone with no relevant milleu qualifies for a disadvantage.
- A character with Milleu A (Native) and Milleu B pays the same as a character with Milleu A and Milleu B (Native), even if Milleu B is more primitive compared than Milleu A.
- Partial milleus are perks. For example, a 1950s test pilot who flies alien spaceships may have "Alien Milleu (Spaceships Only) [1]"
- 5 pt. milleus should have penalties of about -5. 10 pt. milleus should have penalties greater than -5. 15 pt. milleus should have no rolls allowed. Any milleu with smaller penalties than -5 is free.

Here are some possible sets of Milleus (everything is priced relative to the default):
- Contemporary [0]
- 1930s Earth [0], 2030s Earth [10], Ancient Ones [15]
- 2020s Earth [0], Extraterrestrial [Irrelevant! If none other, -10]
- Cybertech [0], Biotech [10]
- Yrth Contemporary [0], Northlander [0], Underground Engineer [5], Recent Migrant [Irrelevant! If none other, -10]
- Wizardly [0], Muggle [15]
- Warp [0], Pre-Warp [5], Q [15]
- Computerized [0], Non-Computerized (i.e. they use lots and lots of paperwork) [5]

What do you think?

[Tyneras]

So a Milleu is a detailed TL by category (i.e. TL 5 materials, TL 4+3^ computers, TL 4+1^ energy, etc. with specific techs enabled or disabled) plus cultural familiarity, then treated as a package deal?

Am I understanding you correctly?

[naloth]

Some of this is good, some of this isn't so good. As far as skills go, I've found that low TL skills are useful because you can often make do with minimal or improvised tools. High TL skills may produce better stuff, but you need the TL infrastructure to get it done. From that perspective pricing how penalized you are away from what you're used to makes sense. High TL people suffer in low TLs. Low TL people can use what they know but not the high TL stuff.

The counterpoints to that are that:
a) equipment and wealth are currently tied to your TL. I'm not sure exactly what your proposal would do that. The 20k you get at TL8 goes a long way buying TL3 equivalent gear, especially if you know you're going to hang out in a TL3 culture.

b) people from more advanced cultures can learn primitive skills as easily as those from a primitive culture. After all, one of the main advancements you get with progress is more time to pursue different ventures.

c) TL, TL^ or TL#+# are usually defined by a catalog of what's available. Even if you call it something else, you'll still need to know what's available for a given culture. What's the benefit of giving that same catalog a new name?

d) I'm not sure how well this would work if a campaign travels freely between different environments. You'll have to buy familiarity with each rather than just a few appropriate (/TL) skills?

[ericthered]

I'm curious about what you do for divergent but roughly equal tech levels.


For example:


a) 1970's earth
b) Gernsback from Infinite worlds
c) The broken clockwork world


Are any of these zero? which are higher? which are lower? How do you price that set?

[TGLS]

Originally Posted by ericthered

I'm curious about what you do for divergent but roughly equal tech levels.


For example:


a) 1970's earth
b) Gernsback from Infinite worlds
c) The broken clockwork world

I'm probably going to have to think through the general idea more carefully, but the rough idea is the price of the Milleu advantage depends on how much of a penalty Technological skills receive. It also generally relies on the idea that the advantage is usable to offset penalties, and if not, the advantage is worthless or a disadvantage.

Some examples from your examples:
A) Gernsbacker is dropped in 1970s Earth, little if any equipment and no way to go back. This is probably a disadvantage, because they can't really use their Milleu to offset penalties, and they're receiving penalties from all the 70s tech. I imagine that there wouldn't be a flat - 5 penalty, but it would average out to something similar to that figure. As they get used to how things are different in the 70s, I imagine they will probably buy off their Disad (as they would have gained 70s Milleu). If the Gernsbacker plays Connecticut Yankee long enough, I imagine they might make their Gernsback Milleu useful.

B) 70s to Gernsback: Regardless of whether all Gernsback tech works in the 70s world (and perhaps vice versa for all 70s tech), I imagine that the penalty works out to an average of - 5. The details of where the penalties are high and low are probably very significant. If Gernsback was only different because of Rayguns and broadcast power instead of lines, then it might be closer to a zero point advantage. I imagine that broadcast power in Gernsback has permeated society to the point where there are no outlets or batteries and most transportation is electric, so penalties might crop up everywhere. Vacuum tubes in the place of transistors would be a comparatively smaller difference.

C) 70s to BCW: I imagine that this might be a 10 point advantage, with fairly hefty penalties. Clockwork and Steam in the place of internal combustion and possibly electricity would be the largest source of penalties. Mind Metal is probably incomprehensible to 70s dwellers, as are transistors to BCWers.

D) Gernsback to BCW: Exactly as far as the 70s is to the BCW. Even though neither no about transistors, it's probably going to still be separated by springs and steam.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by TGLS

I'm probably going to have to think through the general idea more carefully, but the rough idea is the price of the Milleu advantage depends on how much of a penalty Technological skills receive. It also generally relies on the idea that the advantage is usable to offset penalties, and if not, the advantage is worthless or a disadvantage.

Some examples from your examples:
A) Gernsbacker is dropped in 1970s Earth, little if any equipment and no way to go back. This is probably a disadvantage, because they can't really use their Milleu to offset penalties, and they're receiving penalties from all the 70s tech. I imagine that there wouldn't be a flat - 5 penalty, but it would average out to something similar to that figure. As they get used to how things are different in the 70s, I imagine they will probably buy off their Disad (as they would have gained 70s Milleu). If the Gernsbacker plays Connecticut Yankee long enough, I imagine they might make their Gernsback Milleu useful.

B) 70s to Gernsback: Regardless of whether all Gernsback tech works in the 70s world (and perhaps vice versa for all 70s tech), I imagine that the penalty works out to an average of - 5. The details of where the penalties are high and low are probably very significant. If Gernsback was only different because of Rayguns and broadcast power instead of lines, then it might be closer to a zero point advantage. I imagine that broadcast power in Gernsback has permeated society to the point where there are no outlets or batteries and most transportation is electric, so penalties might crop up everywhere. Vacuum tubes in the place of transistors would be a comparatively smaller difference.

C) 70s to BCW: I imagine that this might be a 10 point advantage, with fairly hefty penalties. Clockwork and Steam in the place of internal combustion and possibly electricity would be the largest source of penalties. Mind Metal is probably incomprehensible to 70s dwellers, as are transistors to BCWers.

D) Gernsback to BCW: Exactly as far as the 70s is to the BCW. Even though neither no about transistors, it's probably going to still be separated by springs and steam.

What if the game happens equally in all three worlds?

[Turhan's Bey Company]

OK, I'm not getting this. It sounds like it replaces the TL system with a binary "you do/do not have skills suitable for a suitable bundle of technology," but I don't see how that's an improvement. It doesn't provide better guidance to the player on what kind of equipment is available. It puts work on the GM to define a bundle of technology and doesn't prevent edge cases any more than TLs do (because anyone who wants to argue about the TL of personal computers will argue about the milieu of personal computers). It doesn't provide a developed system of modifiers for dealing with newer or older or alternative technology. It doesn't provide you with important details on healing (which is linked to TL). So far as I can tell, it's just a way of saying "don't write TL on your character sheet," which for standard play is something I don't bother with anyway.

So what is a milieu, exactly, and how does it resolve the problems cited for TLs? If my milieu is, say, 1930s Earth, just how does that impact my ability to use those different kinds of canoes?

EDIT: Oh, and I'd agree that a number of perceived problems with the TL system are a consequence of people dogmatically and incorrectly trying to apply TLs as prescriptive rather than descriptive.

[TGLS]

Originally Posted by ericthered

What if the game happens equally in all three worlds?

Case E) All Three: We have one characters from each setting, and they all equally familiar with all three settings. The GM has ruled all these milieus are equally relevant.

The 70s native has the following Milleus 70s (Native) [0], Gernsback [5], BCW [10]. The Gernsback native has the following Milleus 70s (Native) [0], Gernsback [5], BCW [10]. The Gernsback native has the following Milleus 70s (Native) [0], Gernsback [5], BCW [10]. The BCW native has the following Milleus BCW (Native) [0], 70s [10], Gernsback [10].

It's probably fair to let the BCW native to buy the 70s or Gernsback Milleu at a the same price as a Gernsback or 70s native.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by TGLS

So I've been thinking a bit about the strengths and weaknesses of Tech Levels.

Strengths
- Useful for defining settings in broad strokes
- Helps sort "catalog" books
- Helps define characters who move between very different levels of technology (by making high technology very expensive, and defining the inter-technological defaults)
- Useful for gadgeteers

Weaknesses
- Borderlands of technology result in lots of arguments and confusion (i.e. Is the Apple II TL7? Is the early IBM PC TL8? Do the years matter? Should there really be a cliff between the two?)
- Do technologies that don't change in user facing ways actually change in terms of difficulty? (i.e. is a dugout canoe and a fancy fibreglass canoe all that different in terms of paddling to destination?)
- Divergent and Superscience TLs are confusing and result in arguments. (i.e. is this setting with anti-gravity just TL7^? Is this steampunk setting TL5+1 because it has things comparable to primitive cars, or TL5+5 because it has fairly advanced AI?)

(space snip)

What do you think?

I think that the issue is that people forget this piece from the Basic Set p 511: “Tech level” (TL) is a general rating of a society’s highest achievement in technology (or a certain type of technology). (sic)

That "general" is key. There are going to be variations within a category but is is the general overall TL that matters. IF there is a question go with the high TL. -1 makes a lot more sense for a common item then -5.

The Altair 8800 could be viewed as simply a late TL7 improvement of the TL6 tabliators while the Altir was the first "true" TL8 PC. If you know what your are going you can recompile Unix programs from the 1970s to run on Unix-like OS like MacOS. So despite all the improvements you are still using a TL8 machine.

- Years generally don't matter in 4e (they did in Classic and that is where many problems are from) They are a good benchmark for a general TL but you are going to have a range in anything like a realistic society.

- Divergent and Superscience TLs are IMHO confusing because they are poorly explained. Divergent TL iwas used as a stand-in for Superscience as well as things like Clockpunk, Steampunk (a mixture of TL5+x and TL6+x), and DieselPunk for far longer then it needed to be. The most recent PDFs are trying to fix the problem with TL(x+y) being tech possible with our physical laws while TL(x+y)^ denoting stuff that requires the breaking of physical laws to work.

- Regarding the "is a dugout canoe and a fancy fibreglass canoe all that different in terms of paddling to destination" Yes. The higher tech canoe has a more streamlined hull and better paddles and so is going to handle way differently than the hand made dugout.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by maximara

I think that the issue is that people forget this piece from the Basic Set p 511: “Tech level” (TL) is a general rating of a society’s highest achievement in technology (or a certain type of technology). (sic)

That "general" is key. There are going to be variations within a category but is is the general overall TL that matters. IF there is a question go with the high TL. -1 makes a lot more sense for a common item then -5.

They also confuse it for a serious model of technology in societies, when its really a rough-and-ready answer to "what stuff can we buy?" Somehow, many players are not understanding it the way Kromm understands it, and if people are misunderstanding you it can be wise to change language.

A good thing about the OP is that it avoids the 'ladder model' (one path, move forward or back) of technology which causes so much trouble in historical and science-fiction games.