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Old 11-24-2020, 01:06 PM   #11
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: Duplication + Shapeshifting

One thing I'm not sure of with Ally is that's supposed to be "this person who adventures with me" so can you actually send an Ally out on a long mission away from you like you can w/ a Duplicate?

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
It depends of the level of free will and how much different the dupes are from the original. You could have Ally (100%; Constant; Reliable, +10 +50%; Summonable, +100%) [50] for the ability to always create 'new' dupes with great sympathy for your goals (Reliable really only applies as a reaction modifier for interacting with your dupes and getting them to go along with your plans).
With the way Duplication works I'd imagine Minion +50% too?

I'm only comparing on the basis of the duplicates summoned w/ P48's Construct of course since that's the only way to avoid losing your dupe/CP

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
Since your dupes do not have to purchase Ally and have equivalent level of capabilities, they would manifest different abilities than the primary.
That's one hole in my plan: if you wanted duplicates who could create their own duplicates that wouldn't really be possible since allies can't buy allies, even though the % based approach to Ally pricing in 4e would allow us to do that w/o the problems 3e had with it being based on fixed values.
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Old 11-24-2020, 03:04 PM   #12
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: Duplication + Shapeshifting

Dupes creating dupes are not possible in GURPS, other than with the Sequential limitation, as you can only have one duplication total per level of Duplication (with the exception of certain enhancements in non-compete situations). You could have allies with Duplication though, though that could get out of hand quickly.

For example, you could have a 500 CP super character with five instances of the previous Ally build for 250 CP. Each Ally could have Duplication 5 (Construct, +60%; Multiplication, +20%; Sequential, -40%) [245], allowing them to create five Duplicates each (for a total of 31 instances) in combat or fifteen Duplicates each (for a total of 81 instances) outside of combat.
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Old 11-24-2020, 04:00 PM   #13
oneofmanynameless
 
Join Date: May 2012
Default Re: Duplication + Shapeshifting

there are a fair number of differences between having ally's that are identical to you and having dupes though. For example: information sharing the way Naruto does. You could have each dupe take a different set of college courses and then recombine at the end of the semester to share all knowledge accumulated by all dupes. You could have the dupes spread out and spy on a base from multiple angles and then recombine to gain all knowledge of it.

Also, since duplication is the "I make more of me" advantage I'd stick with that. One thing you should note is that you get to control your dupes, and the GM controls your allies. So getting the same control and milage out of allies would require some means for you to mind control all of your allies all the time at every moment without sacrificing control of yourself which is expensive, particularly if you also want to do other things. And at that point overly complicated as well (unless you really want all of those extra mechanics, which you might).

I don't see any problem with Alternate Form (acc: only for one dupe -10%, linked abilities must be used together +10%) + Duplication (linked abilities must be used together +10%). I'm sure it could be abused, but what can't? I used something similar to that, using a body of blood alternate form and construct duplication, combined with parasitic possession (and terror [awe] and healing also linked in) as a set of mechanics for what happens when someone drinks vampire blood. It was really satisfying to have the mechanics that detailed instead of just using mind control.
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Old 11-24-2020, 04:24 PM   #14
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: Duplication + Shapeshifting

Naruto's Shadow Clones would not use Duplication. They are too fragile, they are too plentiful for combat purposes, and they are too easily recovered. They also manifest slightly different aspects of his personality.

If I was going to do Naruto's Shadow Clones, I would go with Ally Group (100 members; 25%; Constant; Minion, +50%; Special Abilities, +50%; Summonable, +100%) [144]. Minion allows Naruto to control them (they are all on the same wavelength) while their information sharing would be included under Special Abilities. While Naruto would technically summon new manifestations with every use, Minion would negate the need for a reaction roll.
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Old 11-25-2020, 10:02 AM   #15
RedMattis
 
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Default Re: Duplication + Shapeshifting

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
Naruto's Shadow Clones would not use Duplication. They are too fragile, they are too plentiful for combat purposes, and they are too easily recovered. They also manifest slightly different aspects of his personality.
What I was trying to do was not to emulate Naruto, I'm only looking to change the meta-trait or race of the clone. But yes, Naruto clones should probably be some sort of ally-group.
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Old 11-25-2020, 10:05 AM   #16
oneofmanynameless
 
Join Date: May 2012
Default Re: Duplication + Shapeshifting

Is there any circumstance that you would use Duplication over Allies at all? @AlexanderHowl

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
Minion allows Naruto to control them (they are all on the same wavelength) while their information sharing would be included under Special Abilities.
1. I don't think minion grants the player control over the minion without the need to communicate orders. GM still controls the ally. It's loyalty is just ensured no matter how you treat it. Although I guess if you also took the Teamwork perk for your ally group you could basically get around that.

2. Special abilities doesn't actually give special abilities, it's just a premium you have to pay for having them. I guess you could give the ally's a modified telesend to send all of their thoughts and memories all at once when you recombine. Or you could buy a modified mind probe with memory bank, granted by familiar, only on puppets, reflexive, a triggering condition, and probably cosmic no roll required.

But then like... why not call construct duplications construct duplications? he's a pretty classic example of the duplicating superhero taken to 11

Last edited by oneofmanynameless; 11-25-2020 at 10:41 AM.
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Old 11-25-2020, 10:07 AM   #17
oneofmanynameless
 
Join Date: May 2012
Default Re: Duplication + Shapeshifting

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Originally Posted by RedMattis View Post
What I was trying to do was not to emulate Naruto, I'm only looking to change the meta-trait or race of the clone. But yes, Naruto clones should probably be some sort of ally-group.
Just take a linked alternate-form with accessibility: only for dupe -10% (or -20% if you think -10% is too little).
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Old 11-25-2020, 10:41 AM   #18
AlexanderHowl
 
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Default Re: Duplication + Shapeshifting

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Originally Posted by oneofmanynameless View Post
Is there any circumstance that you would use Duplication over Allies at all? @AlexanderHowl
It depends on the situation, but I usually prefer Ally because it is so powerful and so versitile.
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Old 11-25-2020, 05:49 PM   #19
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: Duplication + Shapeshifting

One thing I thought about when reading this ability...

This is not a concern with the 1-level version, but if have 2+ split into 3+ bodies...

Would you need to buy Variable on extra levels to split into less than your full compliment of copies? Or would that be the default and you could take an All or Nothing limitation on extra levels to be unable to make less than a full compliment?

B109 designs this for attacks but P59 mentions taking it for Mana Enhancer/Damper so maybe it's something needed for all leveled traits to use less than a full compliment?

Something like Extra Arms probably wouldn't be Variable by default: you have all the arms out! Switchable should prob let you turn all of them off together, but Variable on top of that to turn off some?

This is also a consideration for an "Ally Group" .. must they all be summoned together w/o Variable, or if they're Variable-by-default then can you take All or Nothing if you can't summon just 1?

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
Dupes creating dupes are not possible in GURPS, other than with the Sequential limitation, as you can only have one duplication total per level of Duplication
Based on PK in 06 it sounds like all copies count as having it, but can't use it because they're already using it to exist?

Like you start off as 1 guy, but once you use the advantage, you split into 10 guys, but the ability is already activated and ongoing to allow the simultaneous existence...

It normally takes a Concentrate maneuver to merge so not 100% sure if "Negate Advantage" should be some kind of workaround for that to allow you to re-merge w/ dupes without needing to spend that concentrate... I think maybe instead it would actually prevent you from re-merging?

But that would seem like the power isn't "on" during that time, but instead is used transiently only at the time of separation/merger...

It might be easier if we had some kind of rule like you could re-merge w/o using a Concentrate but if that happens there's some kind of problem that crops up, like the user taking damage.

PP28/29 "Inner Astral Plane" rules could be something to borrow from for that... if circumstances demand you must re-unify (Maximum Duration elapses, you stop paying FP, someone uses Negate Advantage or Neutralize on your power, etc) but you are unable to spend the required time to do so (usually a 1-second Concentrate, maybe more if you have Takes Extra Time) then maybe all copies should take 1d injury per 5 minutes?

Maybe unhealable damage.. PP never says that for Astral Travel but otherwise you'd create a situation where someone could just get regen of faster than 5/m to offset the lost for a cheaper price than the points saved by taking a "Maximum Duration" limitation and operating beyond it indefinitely.

The 1-second cost of deactivation for switchabilities being bypassed by some other means should probably have ramifications to avoid exploitation somehow? Like maybe if it happens due to external force you're forced to have "down time" equal to required readies, and if it required concentration you can't maintain, then double the downtime?

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
(with the exception of certain enhancements in non-compete situations).
Or the Extra Effort for Powers rules :)

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
Naruto's Shadow Clones would not use Duplication. They are too fragile, they are too plentiful for combat purposes, and they are too easily recovered.
The "easy recovery" aspect to me is either he has a lot of FP so 10 to recreate is nothing (like maybe the fox demon has a reservoir of millions?)

Crazy ER from the Kyubi might also explain how he creates large numbers (using Extra Effort, w/o it he only has a single level of the ability?)

People other than him with limited FP who can create many clones prob just train up the ability, buy Reduced Fatigue, etc.

Fragility is the hard part since I don't know how to take a disad (like lower HP) which only applies to clones, or an advantage which only applies to you but not your clones.

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
If I was going to do Naruto's Shadow Clones, I would go with Ally Group (100 members; 25%; Constant; Minion, +50%; Special Abilities, +50%; Summonable, +100%) [144].
I think he might also have the -10% limited version of Sympathy? ("your wounds affect your Ally, but your Ally’s wounds don’t affect you,") because I'm pretty sure I've seen instances where Naruto gets hurt and his clones just poof, and I've never seen his clones operating while he's knocked out.

To make his clones be weak enough to poof, one idea comes to mind that Naruto might actually have some kind of Leech that he uses against his clones, using their own HP to power his ability to create more?

That could explain another approach to why they would start out with reduced HP/FP and why he could create so many of them: if for example Naruto auto-leeched every new clone for 9/10HP to restore 9FP, each would only cost him a net 1 FP in the long run, but they'd only have 1 HP left.

A bigger problem than the lower HP is probably the circumstances of their demise: I've never seen an unconcious clone just lying there so they likely have something like "Fragile: Unnatural" only applying to them, unless he just automatically uncreates unconscious clones to save on ongoing FP maintenance costs because they're worthless to him?

The new variant of Summonable from P41 finally has a name: DF9p4 calls it "Conjured" so we should probably use that :) This is actually kinda confusing though since B38 actually "conjure your Ally" for Summonable, but I think that's in the sense of "bring them in out of nowhere" than "create them" as DF9 uses it. Like the diff between Creation / Gate magic.

Hm... is a Minion Group also "Variable" by default or is it "All or Nothing" ?

The prob here to me is that once your ally dies you need to wait 1 full day to attempt to summon them again, which I don't think meshes with how that works.

That's one speedbump in trying to replicate Duplicate (Construct) w/ Ally (Conjured) is how to get around the 1 day's down time...

If Conjured were somehow broken down into aspects, whichever one covered "resurrect slain minion" would have Limited Use: Once Per Day (-40%) so buying that off would prob be +40% to whatever that component is. Not knowing what % value of +100% this component is, just calling it +40% (highest possible) feels right.

If that's still too strong then maybe "reduced time" to bring it down? 5 levels of reduced time (+1200%) might be enough to buy a whole 2nd ally you could use simultaneously, and halving 24 hours 5 times to 12h/6h/3h/1.5h/45m is still a long wait.

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
While Naruto would technically summon new manifestations with every use,
Minion would negate the need for a reaction roll.
I'm not aware of where it says Minion would negate the need for reaction rolls that P41 requires for replaceable allies...

"won’t know his charges well enough to have any special obligation" sounds more like it just avoids many of the risks allies normally have: doesn't B38's "free of the usual obligation to treat him well" amount to B37's "will not award you bonus character points for any play session in which you betray, attack, or unnecessarily endanger" rule not applying?
I think if you want to do well with the reaction rolls you would use Talent (P41) or Reliable by extension? Naruto would prob have Reliable +10 if designing clones as Ally Group instead of Duplicates as he gets good reactions from his clones (they want to help) and he's able to easily influence them.

Minion's "continues to serve you" was written for how Ally normally functions per B36 "trust each other implicitly" which doesn't apply to the Conjured variant of Summonable since there is "no memory of or devotion to the summoner"

I'm not sure "continues to serve" can apply if "is serving" is not the state it is to begin with? Instead "free of the usual obligation" prob just means GM can't dock bonus CP for mistreatment like they usually would for allies, or make you lose the advantage if you make them run off.

What it might just mean is that abuse doesn't cause usual penalties to reaction?

in terms of B519's Loyalty Checks a "botched mission" should not reduce Loyalty for a Minion, basically? 518's 11 where loyalty drops to 6 for bad treatment shouldn't apply either.

Or maybe "continues to serve" aspect only kicks in when you actually get a good reaction roll? Until then you can't continue something which never starts? ...

actually no, scratch that, per page 42 of Social Engineering:
"A Minion with Slave Mentality automatically has loyalty 20; roll loyalty for other Minions randomly"

so yeah unless you want to saddle your minions with SM (bad idea unless they are immune to mind control like Zombies in GURPS Magic) you'd want reliable on your Conjured Ally to guarantee your allies react well to you, unless you're naturally charismatic.

Not actually knowing you prob means your minions aren't going to suffer "Reputation" or "Status" penalties to you initially though (they aren't aware of them) but they might over time if you kept them around. I don't know how long it takes to actually gauge what someone's rep/status is when you just meet them.

Last edited by Plane; 11-25-2020 at 06:05 PM.
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Old 11-25-2020, 07:23 PM   #20
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: Duplication + Shapeshifting

You can treat an Ally with Minion however you want, they cannot leave (that is why it is an enhancement, as you can abuse them to your heart's content without any penalty).
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