New Reality Seeds

[ericthered]

Diplomacy -- what a game. Not sure that'd I'd recommend it as a way to do alternate history on a colonial scale in the 1860's though -- its built to do total war on the scale (and population density) of just Europe.

The game got me thinking about the dutch, and what a history that preserved their empire would look like. On one hand, they have a lot of power in the 1700's, particuarly their colonies, but they seem to get knocked out of whack pretty hard by the french revolution, and if you move that --- well, your history looks quite different. The Dutch you can't even pin on Napoleon -- they staged their own sister revolution. So you've either got to take out england and hope Austria, Prussia, and Russia are up to defeating Napoleon, or you have to remove the revolution altogether. hmm. still thinking about the idea...

[somecallmetim]

Originally Posted by patchwork

This is pretty awesome. It seems to me that Ramanujan's work would be much more useful for breaking encryption than making it, though, resulting in a world where the modern idea of "strong encryption" never came to pass We can, of course, do both, as two different timelines.

Cool. I really love math, but I am strictly an amateur. Any insights would be welcome, by me at any rate.

I'm really having trouble seeing a Sino-Indian war going hot in 1960. Both powers can defend very well and project power rather poorly; both of them have strained relationships with both of the established superpowers, leading to a lot of uncertainty in outcome. I think the most you can get is Mao attempting to invade India and failing to accomplish anything of consequence, followed by a lot of sulking and shrieking all around. (Which might be enough to get the outcome you were looking for.)

Hmm... you are probably right. My intent was for India to be stronger and backed by a stronger west opposing a China backed inconsistently by a weaker communist bloc. But probably there just isn't enough time from the serious diveergences to get to that point. Hopefully the rest of the timeline holds up okay with that conflict being much less of direct conflict between the two powers.

One other knockon effect will be about a 20 year jump in chemistry. Ramanujan's equations published in the 1910s formed the basis of quantum chemistry in the 1960s; it languished a bit because he wasn't personally able to advocate for his work, and because computers capable of providing real solutions to his equations in a timely manner hadn't been built yet. We start getting some interesting synthetic polymers and such in the 1960s, maybe even the 1950s, if his work has continued and been prominent.

That is very cool! I had no idea his work had such direct applicability to chemistry. :) Thanks for all the feedback.

[robkelk]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

This would lead to another American War of Independence. Set this in the 1890-1910 period and Teddy Roosevelt might be allied with Mother Jones against an allience of Robber Barrons siding with Britain. Certainly keeping America in line would be fully as brutal as what they did in Ireland. The Empires would still fall and the USA would be clearly seen as an anti-Imperial power. Perhaps the USA in the middle of the 20th century would face fascist twins in Britain and Germany.

The problem with this is that it would require everything the British Empire learned in Canada in 1837 to be completely forgotten three decades later - which is so extremely unlikely that it breaks my suspension of disbelief.

[PTTG]

I dunno, I find it hard to imagine a USA that has been independent for nearly a century being willing to accept neocolonial rule. Especially if it fell to the British in the midst of an internal civil war. If nothing else, the South would never stop fighting its insurgency... I could even imagine slaveholders arming their slaves, getting shot by their slaves, and then the ex-slaves living as hunted men against the British, the locals, and the USA Freedom Fighters.

I'm actually curious what will happen over the next few years in the game. USA could push back against the British... but the Russians in Alaska have a surprisingly tenacious foothold.

[thrash]

Originally Posted by ericthered

The game got me thinking about the dutch, and what a history that preserved their empire would look like.

Perhaps the Dutch East India Company managed to consolidate its position in Asia at the end of the 17th century and effectively freeze its rivals out. This would probably require (inter alia) a Japan that was not so completely isolated from the rest of the world. The result is a Dutch Empire that fills many of the same niches as the British did in Homeline, including opening up China to trade.

[ericthered]

Just a seed this time, inspired by the fabulous map on xkcd

Its something of a joke world, but pick a date (I suggest sometime between now and the cold war) and have everyone wake up and the world is upside down. weather is mysteriously maintained or averaged out. Nothing else weird seems to be going on, beyond widespread consternation and scientists tearing out their hair trying to figure out what happened.

Alternatively, have an extremely high inertia world where the world has always looked like this, yet has mostly the same cultures and geopolitics as our world.

[PTTG]

Originally Posted by ericthered

Just a seed this time, inspired by the fabulous map on xkcd

Its something of a joke world, but pick a date (I suggest sometime between now and the cold war) and have everyone wake up and the world is upside down. weather is mysteriously maintained or averaged out. Nothing else weird seems to be going on, beyond widespread consternation and scientists tearing out their hair trying to figure out what happened.

Alternatively, have an extremely high inertia world where the world has always looked like this, yet has mostly the same cultures and geopolitics as our world.

Banestorm-style transfers from an echo. People keep appearing here in the same place they left... relative to their continent. Since this has been happening constantly, the local politics tend to keep up to date (even if technology is hard to maintain).

If you want to make it high-intertia, say that a handful of people in each wave obviously know where the good mines are, and the occasional professor who shoes up can rapidly upgrade the local TL... meaning that by now the place is almost as populous as any other echo, and as close to being on schedule as possible.

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by ericthered

Diplomacy -- what a game. Not sure that'd I'd recommend it as a way to do alternate history on a colonial scale in the 1860's though -- its built to do total war on the scale (and population density) of just Europe.

The game got me thinking about the dutch, and what a history that preserved their empire would look like. On one hand, they have a lot of power in the 1700's, particuarly their colonies, but they seem to get knocked out of whack pretty hard by the french revolution, and if you move that --- well, your history looks quite different. The Dutch you can't even pin on Napoleon -- they staged their own sister revolution. So you've either got to take out england and hope Austria, Prussia, and Russia are up to defeating Napoleon, or you have to remove the revolution altogether. hmm. still thinking about the idea...

The key problem the Dutch have in the later 17th century is Louis XIV. Not only can he march his armies into the Netherlands routinely, but he focuses on smashing them out of key markets more effectively than anyone else. To preserve Dutch power you'd need to force Louis either to focus elsewhere or get rid of him completely. Perhaps an effective Fronde could limit royal power and Louis would spend his reign trying to gain absolute power in France and leave the Dutch alone.

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by ericthered

Just a seed this time, inspired by the fabulous map on xkcd

Its something of a joke world, but pick a date (I suggest sometime between now and the cold war) and have everyone wake up and the world is upside down. weather is mysteriously maintained or averaged out. Nothing else weird seems to be going on, beyond widespread consternation and scientists tearing out their hair trying to figure out what happened.

Alternatively, have an extremely high inertia world where the world has always looked like this, yet has mostly the same cultures and geopolitics as our world.

Set this map on a world where the continents have been fliped around this way and watch the vast armies of desperate people on the move.

[ericthered]

For a 'Dutch' world I can few possibilities (a reality seed each?)

The fronde is decided in favor of the french nobles. This causes the dutch to remain strong and able to keep their own against both england at sea and france on the land, and they keep a world spanning empire including indonesia, south africa, and much of india. As side effects of a weaker french monarchy, russia's westernization is less likely and less complete, the american revolution either fails or takes much longer time to succeed, and the french revolution gets put off schedule. Europe will have less powerful monarchs and more powerful "Houses of Lords" (such as the dutch estates general).

The house of orange merges with the english royal house in about 1650. The Dutch don't take anywhere near the hammering they took in the late 17th century. When the netherlands are conquered during the napoleonic wars, England does not take the opportunity to trash the western half of the dutch empire, but rather keeps it safe. The Kings find it quite useful to play parliament and the estates general off of each other, not to mention various rival factions on each side of the channel.

The Dutch merge with the Prussians, who have the military strength to weather the storms of european war. And with the wealth of the dutch, Prussia consolidates a german empire more quickly (combining at this point, you're likely to not have german and dutch considered different languages), and the dutch colonies become the much coveted German colonies. The dutch are still likely to loose some of their colonies, but WWI is much more likely to be an actual world war. Germany is also more likely to have democratic elements in it at this time.

The Dutch, through heavy colonization, build up a population that can maintain its sea power in some-place other than europe. The two big canidates are new york and south africa. In this time line, new york stays in dutch hands, and emigration to both there and south Africa increase. The American colonies become much less united, and the french keep their hands on canada. The american revolution is limited to new england. When the french take over holland in their war, the dutch goverment moves abroad, and allies with england in an effort to regain its home. the subsequent century sees lots of wars between the British, Dutch, French, and 'Americans' (new england) over the fate of the American interior.

Napolean takes england and subdues europe. The colonies of europe mostly run independently, as napolean deals with rebellion after blood-soaked rebellion on the continent. After years of bloodshed, Napoleon is assassinated, and europe emerges from its painful unity. Holland comes out in wonderful shape. The old powers have exhausted themselves against France's finest young men and the most skilful general since alexander the great. Holland, who played the good little subject, is vibrant, and enters a new period of colonization.