The Phantom Menace

[Gnome]

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

The issues with Phantom have come up a few times before in the forum. Try searching on the keyword "phantom" and you should find the relevant threads. You might get some ideas on how to make it work for your games *shrug*

Though the spell sounds like a cool idea, I long ago decided it was just not worth trying to rationalize and balance it. My advice is to just drop it. Illusionists have plenty to do with their other spells, and if you want them to have some supernatural physical options, just allow 'em access to the Create spells.

I've seen the older threads and found them unsatisfying. The Create Spells require loads of prereqs from other colleges, and the only one with any practical use in combat is Create Animal. Create Warrior takes 4 secs to cast, arrives naked, and requires 4 FP to maintain. By the time you're done creating and equipping it, either you're dead or out of FP.
Maybe I should just make up my own spell. Something like "Create Monster." For whatever reason, I'm still drawn to the concept behind Phantom though...

[Gnome]

Okay. What I wanted was the ability for powerful illusionists to create powerful pets that a smart enemy has a chance of getting past by "seeing through" its ultimately insubstantial nature. Instead of Phantom, I'm thinking of using the following homespun spells (for DF only!). Any and all input would be appreciated.

Create Monster (VH)
Regular
Create a living monster (dragon, ogre, bogeyman, vampire, etc.) to fight or do as you command. If it cannot understand you, it will act in what it thinks is your best interest. A created being continues to exist until the caster stops maintaining it, or until it is killed, at which point it vanishes. A creation must be identical to a “real” being with which the caster has first-hand experience, or which the caster has researched extensively. However, monsters appear with no IQ-based skills.

Duration: 1 minute.
Cost: 4, multiplied by 1 + SM for monsters larger than SM 0. Half that to maintain.
Time to cast: Equal to cost, in seconds.
Prerequisites: Magery 4, Create Mount, Create Warrior

Create Phantom Animal
Regular
Like Create Animal but creates a Phantom Animal instead, insubstantial to those who see it for what it is. The first time any living creature sees or otherwise senses a Phantom Animal, roll a Quick Contest between the caster’s effective skill and the being’s IQ. If the caster loses, then the Phantom Animal is treated as a Perfect Illusion for all purposes with regards to that character.

Duration: 1 minute.
Cost: 2, multiplied by 1 + SM for animals larger than SM 0.
Prerequisites: Magery 2, Perfect Illusion, Hinder, and Apportation

Create Phantom Warrior
Regular
Like Create Warrior but creates a Phantom Warrior instead, insubstantial to those who see it for what it is. The first time any living creature sees or otherwise senses a Phantom Warrior, roll a Quick Contest between the caster’s effective skill and the being’s IQ. If the caster loses, then the Phantom Warrior is treated as a Perfect Illusion for all purposes with regards to that character.

Duration: 1 minute.
Cost: 4 to cast, 4 to maintain.
Prerequisites: Magery 2, Perfect Illusion, Hinder, and Apportation

Create Phantom Monster (VH)
Regular
Like Create Monster but creates a Phantom Monster instead, insubstantial to those who see it for what it is. The first time any living creature sees or otherwise senses a Phantom Monster, roll a Quick Contest between the caster’s effective skill and the being’s IQ. If the caster loses, then the Phantom Monster is treated as a Perfect Illusion for all purposes with regards to that character.

Duration: 1 minute.
Cost: 4, multiplied by 1 + SM for monsters larger than SM 0. Half that to maintain.
Time to cast: Equal to cost, in seconds.
Prerequisites: Magery 4, Create Phantom Animal, Create Phantom Warrior

[jeff_wilson]

Originally Posted by Gnome

I really like the flavor of the Phantom spell. The idea of an illusion so powerful that if you believe in it, it can actually hurt you is a cool one, and I also like having a powerful combat option towards the top end of the Illusion spell chain, especially for Dungeon Fantasy (where its in the list of spells for an "Illusionist"). However, the spell is so badly written that it's virtually unusable. The otherwise mighty and worship-worthy Kromm should probably be embarrassed by this oversight.

Don't blame Kromm. MAGIC 4E was a black project done when 4th edition was not yet announced. It not only evaded a real playtest but escaped his review as well. There are further economic reasons that prevent it from being corrected, and there's even some errata to its errata that keep bouncing off a virtual Pentagram of formidable skill.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Gnome

Uhhh...not attack people in any way?

I didn't ask what it didn't do. I asked what it did do. Phantom is a more advanced spell with more advanced capability.

What's a surprise check? I see rules in the Basic books about what happens if a party of PCs is surprised, but no rules for surprise checks or an individual being surprised. I thought you needed to be aware that you are about to be attacked in order to get a defense...

After the first time, not such a surprise. I mean there's a wizard right there casting spells.

I don't get it. Are you saying that it's impossible to hit a phantom if the caster is concentrating on it? Can the caster just have it attack and then move out of range of any possible attack?

Well not if the opponent is faster or has a held action since

Wouldn't an inanimate object automatically fail its IQ check, as it has IQ 0?

What are you fooling with the illusion? It's like trying to use Mind Control on a car.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Gnome

Create Monster (VH)
Regular
Create a living monster (dragon, ogre, bogeyman, vampire, etc.) to fight or do as you command. If it cannot understand you, it will act in what it thinks is your best interest. A created being continues to exist until the caster stops maintaining it, or until it is killed, at which point it vanishes. A creation must be identical to a “real” being with which the caster has first-hand experience, or which the caster has researched extensively. However, monsters appear with no IQ-based skills.
r

It would need prerequisites relevant to every capability you are trying to simulate. You need a fire spell if it is to breath fire, a mind control spell if it can mess with your mind...

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by jeff_wilson

Don't blame Kromm. MAGIC 4E was a black project done when 4th edition was not yet announced. It not only evaded a real playtest but escaped his review as well. There are further economic reasons that prevent it from being corrected, and there's even some errata to its errata that keep bouncing off a virtual Pentagram of formidable skill.

Yeah. The spell is from Grimoire, which has a reputation for spells that do not compare well, balance-wise, with spells from the earlier editions of Magic. The fact that Kromm lists it in DF1 as a spell for Illusionists is interesting, though. I wonder if he has a version of his own?

[jeff_wilson]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

It would need prerequisites relevant to every capability you are trying to simulate. You need a fire spell if it is to breath fire, a mind control spell if it can mess with your mind...

The impact of prerequisites on adjudication of spell effects has been deprecated many times. Considering spells with some of the most powerful effects often have prereqs like "spells from any N colleges" and thus don't build on any definite effect or method in particular, there's no reason to think less powerful effects have to, either. Phantoms do what they do because of the way the spell is written (sorta) and the way spell rules in general work.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by jeff_wilson

The impact of prerequisites on adjudication of spell effects has been deprecated many times. Considering spells with some of the most powerful effects often have prereqs like "spells from any N colleges" and thus don't build on any definite effect or method in particular, there's no reason to think less powerful effects have to, either. Phantoms do what they do because of the way the spell is written (sorta) and the way spell rules in general work.

Except that this is a "do-anything" spell letting the character trot out any creature existing in his world. It needs more structure if it is to be used.

[Gnome]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Except that this is a "do-anything" spell letting the character trot out any creature existing in his world. It needs more structure if it is to be used.

I was working from the existing Create Animal, Warrior and Mount. Create Mount can make a flying mount even though Flight isn't a prerequisite. Create Animal can make an electric eel even though Lightning isn't a prerequisite. Create Animal is an extraordinarily open-ended "do-anything" spell if I ever saw one. You're right, though, that Create Monster is even harder to balance. The GM would have to be careful about what kinds of monsters he introduces.

In any case, even if Create Monster doesn't work out, I'm still interested in trying something like Create Phantom Animal, Create Phantom Warrior, etc. to replace Phantom. Anyone out there with suggestions for improving these homebrews?

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Gnome

In any case, even if Create Monster doesn't work out, I'm still interested in trying something like Create Phantom Animal, Create Phantom Warrior, etc. to replace Phantom. Anyone out there with suggestions for improving these homebrews?

They actually look OK to me, with the exception of Create Monster (and the derived Create Phantom Monster), which seems like it might be too easily abused [and is covered in large part by the existing Create Animal and Create Mount]. The problems with the Phantom spell are taken care of by having the creation act as the non-phantom spell if 'believed'.