The Phantom Menace

[Gnome]

I really like the flavor of the Phantom spell. The idea of an illusion so powerful that if you believe in it, it can actually hurt you is a cool one, and I also like having a powerful combat option towards the top end of the Illusion spell chain, especially for Dungeon Fantasy (where its in the list of spells for an "Illusionist"). However, the spell is so badly written that it's virtually unusable. The otherwise mighty and worship-worthy Kromm should probably be embarrassed by this oversight.
Rather than giving the stats for a Phantom, we're only given its ST and DX. So what about the rest of its character sheet? How many attacks does it get? How much damage does it do? How fast does it move? Does it have active defenses? Does the caster need to concentrate on it in order for it to attack? Does it have to enter an enemy's hex (so that the Phantom is "touching" its target) or can it attack from a neighboring hex if its wielding an illusory sword? Can it have innate attacks? Can it have ranged attacks?
Under some interpretations, this spell could be extraordinarily powerful. For example, if I can create a Phantom with Innate Attacks, good defenses, etc., its power could be virtually limitless. On the other hand, if it can only punch and kick and has no defenses, then its pretty much worthless (at least in a DF combat), because it dies to almost any attack and will usually die from making an attack (if the enemy has a weapon with which to parry and damage the offending arm).
So I would like to rewrite the spell to make it specific and fair for Dungeon Fantasy. Any ideas?

[benz72]

Find a thaumatologocal basis for the interaction with the world and apply it consistently.

By this I mean;
Don't let it lift more than an equivalently costly (in FP) Apportation would or do more damage than that ST would indicate UNLESS it is moving something or acting upon something with a mind to trick into causing the effect.

Have the spell defined so that the maximum range of effest is consistent... I would suggest range = magery hexes so that a M1 caster's phantom can use a sword, a M2 caster's phantom can use a spear and an M3 caster's phantom can breathe fire 3 hexes away.

Use Illusoin Art (scary isslusions) as a complementary skill

If you are looking for a total rewrite, you may want to consider somehting like having 'wounds' from the phantom take effect via something like the Fright Check table. Having opponent's minds chipped away every time a blow is landed may actually be more powerful than is reasonable though.

As to special powers, I'd say that if you can relate it visually / audibly / tactily so that the target believes it, the mind of the illusionist is the limit.

If I were GMing, every time a non-supernatural looking phantom pulled a suprising ability out of it's... posterior... I'd consider letting the opponent re-roll to disbelieve. For this reason, I think, most illusionists would tend toward supernatural (and frightening) phantoms of things that the general population would believe could be summoned (elementals, demons, extra-planar baddies, undead).

Good Luck, please let us know what you come up with.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Gnome

I really like the flavor of the Phantom spell. The idea of an illusion so powerful that if you believe in it, it can actually hurt you is a cool one, and I also like having a powerful combat option towards the top end of the Illusion spell chain, especially for Dungeon Fantasy (where its in the list of spells for an "Illusionist"). However, the spell is so badly written that it's virtually unusable. The otherwise mighty and worship-worthy Kromm should probably be embarrassed by this oversight.
Rather than giving the stats for a Phantom, we're only given its ST and DX. So what about the rest of its character sheet? How many attacks does it get?

One, of course

How much damage does it do?

Determined by it's strength.

How fast does it move?

The rules for Simple Illusion apply to any more advanced illusion except where the description of the spell says otherwise. It moves anywhere the caster wants, infinitely fast. It is, after all, just a figment of the imagination

Does it have active defenses?

No.

Does the caster need to concentrate on it in order for it to attack?

Rules for simple illusion again. The caster only needs to concentrate to change hexes or the form of the phantom. Which means if the opponent keeps retreating, the caster has to keep concentrating. Thus it's most effective when used to grapple people for damage

Does it have to enter an enemy's hex (so that the Phantom is "touching" its target) or can it attack from a neighboring hex if its wielding an illusory sword?

All it has is strength. It may look like a man with a sword but it has to touch the target to hurt it.

Can it have innate attacks? Can it have ranged attacks?

All it has is strength.

On the other hand, if it can only punch and kick and has no defenses, then its pretty much worthless (at least in a DF combat),

A ST 30 grappler is never useless.

because it dies to almost any attack

It can instantly be in your hex and crushing you. And if your friends try to help they have the usual problem with regards to attacking something in close combat, plus they have to make an IQ roll, and if they win the contest, their attack will pass through the Phantom as if it isn't there.

and will usually die from making an attack (if the enemy has a weapon with which to parry and damage the offending arm).

You can only parry with a close combat weapon because it's in close combat.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Gnome

So I would like to rewrite the spell to make it specific and fair for Dungeon Fantasy. Any ideas?

The issues with Phantom have come up a few times before in the forum. Try searching on the keyword "phantom" and you should find the relevant threads. You might get some ideas on how to make it work for your games *shrug*

Though the spell sounds like a cool idea, I long ago decided it was just not worth trying to rationalize and balance it. My advice is to just drop it. Illusionists have plenty to do with their other spells, and if you want them to have some supernatural physical options, just allow 'em access to the Create spells.

[Gnome]

Originally Posted by benz72

Find a thaumatologocal basis for the interaction with the world and apply it consistently.

By this I mean;
Don't let it lift more than an equivalently costly (in FP) Apportation would or do more damage than that ST would indicate UNLESS it is moving something or acting upon something with a mind to trick into causing the effect.

Have the spell defined so that the maximum range of effest is consistent... I would suggest range = magery hexes so that a M1 caster's phantom can use a sword, a M2 caster's phantom can use a spear and an M3 caster's phantom can breathe fire 3 hexes away.

Use Illusoin Art (scary isslusions) as a complementary skill

If you are looking for a total rewrite, you may want to consider somehting like having 'wounds' from the phantom take effect via something like the Fright Check table. Having opponent's minds chipped away every time a blow is landed may actually be more powerful than is reasonable though.

As to special powers, I'd say that if you can relate it visually / audibly / tactily so that the target believes it, the mind of the illusionist is the limit.

If I were GMing, every time a non-supernatural looking phantom pulled a suprising ability out of it's... posterior... I'd consider letting the opponent re-roll to disbelieve. For this reason, I think, most illusionists would tend toward supernatural (and frightening) phantoms of things that the general population would believe could be summoned (elementals, demons, extra-planar baddies, undead).

Good Luck, please let us know what you come up with.

Great suggestions! I like tying Reach to Magery level, and I like limiting its lifting capacity to an Apportation of the same energy cost. Those are nice, game-defined stats. I do want it ultimately to do regular damage though, as opposed to Fright Checks, etc. Illusions can already cause Fright Checks, as can a number of other spells.
I'm still not sure how to delimit Speed, Move, defenses, number of attacks, etc. For example, a powerful demon might have 3 extra attacks, talons, a long striker, etc. Does that mean a phantom demon has all of these things? Couldn't the caster then simply imagine a demon with whatever uber-powerful abilities he wants? Or even a fire-breathing dragon?
The original spell ties the phantom's ST and DX to skill level, so I suppose I could say that the phantom's Speed and Move are Skill/2, and give it a Dodge on any turn in which the caster took a Concentrate maneuver to move the phantom.
I'm still no closer to deciding how much damage it can do though. If the caster can create the phantom holding any weapon, why not give it a phantom very fine two-handed sword? In fact, why not make it a very fine two-handed sword with Puissance 3?
My goal is to capture the spirit in which the spell was written (and the spirit in which it was included on that sample spell list in DF). Perhaps one of the writers of the Magic book or of DF could chime in?

[Gnome]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

One, of course

Why "of course?" If it can move infinitely fast, can't it just run through any number of enemy hexes, touching each enemy as it passes?

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Determined by it's strength.

So...thr+1? Sw+100? Does it only make unarmed attacks? If so, can it kick as well as punch? Why can't it have an illusory weapon or striker?

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Rules for simple illusion again. The caster only needs to concentrate to change hexes or the form of the phantom. Which means if the opponent keeps retreating, the caster has to keep concentrating. Thus it's most effective when used to grapple people for damage

Grappling does damage?

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

All it has is strength.

I don't know what this means. In order to hurt someone, you use your strength combined with the damage of your attack.

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

A ST 30 grappler is never useless.

It can instantly be in your hex and crushing you. And if your friends try to help they have the usual problem with regards to attacking something in close combat, plus they have to make an IQ roll, and if they win the contest, their attack will pass through the Phantom as if it isn't there.

You can only parry with a close combat weapon because it's in close combat.

This is helpful. If it can be cast in an enemy's hex, instantly attacking them (without having to "enter" the hex first), the phantom might indeed be powerful even without weapons, innate attacks or natural attacks. In fact, on that first attack the enemy would get no defense, since the phantom appears holding him. Is this correct? But then on the next turn can the caster Concentrate and move the phantom infinitely fast into another enemy's hex, attacking him without possibility of defense as well?
Also, I don't see why your friends would have to lose the contest in order to destroy the phantom. If you lose the contest, the phantom can hurt you; you should be able to strike it no matter what, I should think.
Speaking of striking the Phantom, can it have a SM? How hard is it to hit? Why can't it Dodge (if the caster is currently controlling it)?

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Gnome

Why "of course?" If it can move infinitely fast, can't it just run through any number of enemy hexes, touching each enemy as it passes?

Because you don't get extra attacks just for moving fast in GURPS and it doesn't do damage with just a touch anyway.

So...thr+1? Sw+100?

It doesn't have any weapons.

Does it only make unarmed attacks? If so, can it kick as well as punch? Why can't it have an illusory weapon or striker?

Because you are really attacking with the telekinesis component of the spell.

Grappling does damage?

Choking and crushing people does.

This is helpful. If it can be cast in an enemy's hex, instantly attacking them (without having to "enter" the hex first), the phantom might indeed be powerful even without weapons, innate attacks or natural attacks. In fact, on that first attack the enemy would get no defense, since the phantom appears holding him.

The phantom still has to attack. It just appears in any hex the wizard wants.

Also, I don't see why your friends would have to lose the contest in order to destroy the phantom. If you lose the contest, the phantom can hurt you; you should be able to strike it no matter what, I should think.

If you win the context, the Phantom is a Perfect Illusion for you. Attacks move harmless through Perfect Illusions.

Speaking of striking the Phantom, can it have a SM?

No reason why not. But since it has to be in close combat to attack really small Phantoms are at no particular advantage.

How hard is it to hit? Why can't it Dodge (if the caster is currently controlling it)?

Because it's mindless, and incapable of moving outside of its hex without concentration from its creator, and if the creator does move it said creator can zap it anywhere in sight.

[Gnome]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Because you are really attacking with the telekinesis component of the spell.

What telekinesis component?

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

The phantom still has to attack. It just appears in any hex the wizard wants.

So how could you defend against something that appears in your hex and attacks you?

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

No reason why not. But since it has to be in close combat to attack really small Phantoms are at no particular advantage.

Except that the victim's friends will have a much harder time saving him if they can't hit the phantom. Casters will be inclined to make it SM -8 or so for this reason.

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Because it's mindless, and incapable of moving outside of its hex without concentration from its creator, and if the creator does move it said creator can zap it anywhere in sight.

So why can't the caster have it dodge? If he is currently concentrating on the phantom and someone attacks it, why can't the caster move it out of the way (infinitely fast!)?

I'm not just being argumentative, and I really appreciate your helping me work out all of these kinks. I've had a lot of trouble understanding what this spell actually does or how to conceive of it. Your starting to clarify things for me. Just wait until I ask whether it can pick up a weapon or open a door.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Gnome

What telekinesis component?

Look at the prerequisites. Apportation. And what does Apportation do?

So how could you defend against something that appears in your hex and attacks you?

The same way you defend against anything else in your hex, if you make your surprise check.

Except that the victim's friends will have a much harder time saving him if they can't hit the phantom.

But if the phantom is too small to grapple, then it's limited to punching, allowing the victim to just step away from it, and that requires the caster to actively concentrate to move his phantom, largely defeating the point. Add to that the reality that it's simply not a good idea to shoot people in close combat with your friends anyway....

So why can't the caster have it dodge?

What would be the point when he can just have it teleport away?

I'm not just being argumentative, and I really appreciate your helping me work out all of these kinks. I've had a lot of trouble understanding what this spell actually does or how to conceive of it. Your starting to clarify things for me. Just wait until I ask whether it can pick up a weapon or open a door.

The need for an IQ roll suggests not.

[Gnome]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Look at the prerequisites. Apportation. And what does Apportation do?

Uhhh...not attack people in any way?

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

The same way you defend against anything else in your hex, if you make your surprise check.

What's a surprise check? I see rules in the Basic books about what happens if a party of PCs is surprised, but no rules for surprise checks or an individual being surprised. I thought you needed to be aware that you are about to be attacked in order to get a defense...

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

What would be the point when he can just have it teleport away?

I don't get it. Are you saying that it's impossible to hit a phantom if the caster is concentrating on it? Can the caster just have it attack and then move out of range of any possible attack?

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

The need for an IQ roll suggests not.

Wouldn't an inanimate object automatically fail its IQ check, as it has IQ 0?