What happens when a PC casts a Resurection spell on an undead?

b-dog · 12-15-2010, 03:05 AM

I am curious about what would happen if a PC were to cast Ressurection on an undead like a vampire, wight or lich? Would this restore the body of the undead to living flesh, thus ending the curse? Or is undead of a higher order of magnitude and thus can not be overturned by mere magic?

Also, this got me thinking about healing spells in general and how they might affect the undead. Garlic is shunned by vampires because of it´s healing properties so maybe healing spells would be harmful to undead? Or maybe they would just not work? What do you think? Thanks.

Captain-Captain · 12-15-2010, 03:11 AM

My inclination is to note that "Undead" is not the same as "Dead" and Resurrection only works on dead folk.

Undeath is not some 'higher order' or anything, it's a different category. Shape Earth does not work on water after all!

Jürgen Hubert · 12-15-2010, 03:46 AM

Depends entirely on your cosmology - what undeath ultimately represents.

Or, if you haven't given any thought to it so far, ask yourself: "What would make for a more interesting story?"

Would it be more interesting to see a person who has been undead for centuries return to life? Will the effect be only temporary, as the "life energy" infused into the body by the spell is ultimately subsumed by the "death energy" already in it? Does he immediately die of old age afterwards because his body "catches up" with the time he was suspended in undeath? Or does he become "ye liveliest awefulleness", a half-alive, half dead abomination suffering terrible agonies?

I would avoid the answer "nothing happens", though - that's boring.

korbeau · 12-15-2010, 06:26 AM

Ressurection on an undead? If undead fail a HT (or some resistance roll), it destroy by the spell.

For boss undead, it must required something more with the Ressurection spell; the real name of the undeead or flowers from his marriage while he was living...

Like Jürgen say, depends of your cosmology. I still have all Planescape box set and try to use my material for gaming. For me, Ressurection channel the energy from the Positive Plan and Undead are part of the Negative Plan (except mummy). So a spell like Ressurection destroy the undead but it screw if cast on a mummy.

malloyd · 12-15-2010, 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b-dog

Also, this got me thinking about healing spells in general and how they might affect the undead. Garlic is shunned by vampires because of it´s healing properties so maybe healing spells would be harmful to undead? Or maybe they would just not work? What do you think? Thanks.

This is going to be setting dependent. Standard D&D undead animated by "negative energy" take damage from healing spells, since they're antipowers. Undead held up by the power of demons presumably don't respond well to any kind of contact with magic drawn from the Goddess of Kindly Sweetness. On the other hand, "zombies" produced by strange diseases that replace your brain probably respond normally to superscience healing.

Note that Ressurection is not *just* a massive healing spell, it also contains a summon and bind the target's soul, or at least some supernatural memory store given that you can be ressurected with such things intact regardless of the state of your brain. Some kinds of undead have already sold or destroyed their souls in exchange for their state, which would preclude that from working properly.

korbeau · 12-15-2010, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by malloyd

Note that Ressurection is not *just* a massive healing spell, it also contains a summon and bind the target's soul

If you feel creepy, do it "a la Stephen King" - the soul in the resurected body could be the soul of someone (or something!) else.

gilbertocarlos · 12-15-2010, 07:49 AM

In my table, it is pretty stabilished that this is a paradox.

Kromm · 12-15-2010, 09:39 AM

I'd love to know who's tying down a powerful supernatural being that can't be knocked out, put to sleep, paralyzed, etc., and then spending two hours – or, more likely, 20 hours working ceremonial magic – to cast a 300-energy spell that's at -1 per day since death! For one thing, such a being could do a lot of Very Bad Things in that much time, especially to wizards who must stay within arm's reach while casting to avoid being at -1/yard. Yikes. For another, a lich, vampire, etc. has probably been dead for a while, so at -1/day, the spell would likely fail even if it had the potential to do something cool. Which it doesn't . . .

If the subject were both freshly undead and cooperative – e.g., a friend killed by a vampire this afternoon, coming back as a vampire tonight and desperately seeking a cure – then the casting might at least seem plausible. However, Resurrection affects dead people, and "undead" isn't "dead" by definition. This seems doomed to failure, like casting Shape Water on a fire or Turn Zombie on a live person . . . that might seem boring, but a spell's size and difficulty shouldn't exempt it from requiring a suitable target. That would be like saying, "Well, if we take a long time to cast Shape Water ceremonially with 1,000 energy, shouldn't we be able to break the rules and affect a fire?" Uh, no.

If you make the subject plain old dead first (e.g., staking your vampire friend through the heart, or beating the tar out of an enemy lich), then I can't see why Resurrection wouldn't work as advertised on the corpse, restoring it to life. Of course, you get back the person who used to live in that body. If the undead being was animated by a spirit other than its old self, then the newly alive subject will have no clue what its body had been used for while undead, and likely not know anything about undeath, treasures, etc. If the undead being was responsible for its own undeath, then the resurrected subject is likely to be very angry and uncooperative.

As for Healing magic in general, the answer is "it depends." There's no "positive energy vs. negative energy" conflict, and no spiritual element, as written. Healing spells that restore HP or limbs mechanically knit meat and bone, and work on anything that has meat and bone; the undead don't heal naturally because they have Unhealing, but that disadvantage specifically allows magical healing. On the other hand, many Healing spells are worthless on the undead: If you have Immunity to Metabolic Hazards, then Cure Disease and Neutralize Poison won't ever be relevant; if you have Doesn't Sleep, then Awaken is pointless; if you have no FP, then Lend Energy and Recover Energy don't do anything; Final Rest explicitly has no effect on undead who've already risen; and so on. Generally, the undead being's traits as an undead being determine which spells work; for instance, you can't do an end run by saying "Liches are created using a deadly poison potion, so Instant Neutralize Poison should kill a lich," because the lich's current traits include Immunity to Metabolic Hazards, which means that "poisoned" isn't a valid state for a lich.

Gangrel44 · 12-15-2010, 11:51 AM

In my games..say if you killed a vampire permanently and you cast a resurection spell on it...it would return to life or in this case unlife. For the sole fact and reason it died as a vampire and it would be brought back as a vampire.

Grouchy Chris · 12-15-2010, 01:32 PM

Interestingly, the description of Resurrection doesn't say it works only on the dead. Instead, it "brings the subject back to life," and does not mention anything about what condition the subject may have been in beforehand.

It also doesn't say it breaks any curses or other spells the subject is under. Arguably, a Zombie spell is broken when the subject is no longer a dead body. But, arguably, it's not. (If "dead" and "undead" are disjoint categories, then the subject of a Zombie spell hasn't been a dead body since the spell was cast. This implies that the spell's initiation depends on the deadness of the body, but its continuing operation does not. Semantics is fun!)

This opens up the possibility of having a live, resurrected person who remains the subject of the Zombie spell. The wounds would heal, the lungs would breathe, the blood would circulate, but the body would still remain under the necromancer's control. And the mind would be stuck in there, unable to motivate the body to do anything the necromancer doesn't command it to do. Creepy.

I don't think I'd allow it in my game, because this situation is incompatible with my preferred metaphysics. But I could see other games where it would fit in nicely.

12-15-2010, 03:05 AM	#1
b-dog Join Date: Nov 2006	What happens when a PC casts a Resurection spell on an undead? I am curious about what would happen if a PC were to cast Ressurection on an undead like a vampire, wight or lich? Would this restore the body of the undead to living flesh, thus ending the curse? Or is undead of a higher order of magnitude and thus can not be overturned by mere magic? Also, this got me thinking about healing spells in general and how they might affect the undead. Garlic is shunned by vampires because of it´s healing properties so maybe healing spells would be harmful to undead? Or maybe they would just not work? What do you think? Thanks.

12-15-2010, 03:11 AM	#2
Captain-Captain Join Date: Aug 2004	Re: What happens when a PC casts a Resurection spell on an undead? My inclination is to note that "Undead" is not the same as "Dead" and Resurrection only works on dead folk. Undeath is not some 'higher order' or anything, it's a different category. Shape Earth does not work on water after all! __________________ ...().0...0() .../..........\ -/......O.....\- ...VVVVVVV ..^^^^^^^ A clock running two hours slow has the correct time zero times a day.

12-15-2010, 03:46 AM	#3
Jürgen Hubert Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Oldenburg, Germany	Re: What happens when a PC casts a Resurection spell on an undead? Depends entirely on your cosmology - what undeath ultimately represents. Or, if you haven't given any thought to it so far, ask yourself: "What would make for a more interesting story?" Would it be more interesting to see a person who has been undead for centuries return to life? Will the effect be only temporary, as the "life energy" infused into the body by the spell is ultimately subsumed by the "death energy" already in it? Does he immediately die of old age afterwards because his body "catches up" with the time he was suspended in undeath? Or does he become "ye liveliest awefulleness", a half-alive, half dead abomination suffering terrible agonies? I would avoid the answer "nothing happens", though - that's boring. __________________ GURPS Repository • Sunken Castles, Evil Poodles - translating German folk tales into English!

12-15-2010, 06:26 AM	#4
korbeau Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: St-Basile-Le-Grand, Qc	Re: What happens when a PC casts a Resurection spell on an undead? Ressurection on an undead? If undead fail a HT (or some resistance roll), it destroy by the spell. For boss undead, it must required something more with the Ressurection spell; the real name of the undeead or flowers from his marriage while he was living... Like Jürgen say, depends of your cosmology. I still have all Planescape box set and try to use my material for gaming. For me, Ressurection channel the energy from the Positive Plan and Undead are part of the Negative Plan (except mummy). So a spell like Ressurection destroy the undead but it screw if cast on a mummy.

12-15-2010, 07:49 AM	#7
gilbertocarlos Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Caxias do Sul, Brazil	Re: What happens when a PC casts a Resurection spell on an undead? In my table, it is pretty stabilished that this is a paradox.

12-15-2010, 09:39 AM	#8
Kromm *GURPS* Line Editor Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Montréal, Québec	Re: What happens when a PC casts a Resurection spell on an undead? I'd love to know who's tying down a powerful supernatural being that can't be knocked out, put to sleep, paralyzed, etc., and then spending two hours – or, more likely, 20 hours working ceremonial magic – to cast a 300-energy spell that's at -1 per day since death! For one thing, such a being could do a lot of Very Bad Things in that much time, especially to wizards who must stay within arm's reach while casting to avoid being at -1/yard. Yikes. For another, a lich, vampire, etc. has probably been dead for a while, so at -1/day, the spell would likely fail even if it had the potential to do something cool. Which it doesn't . . . If the subject were both freshly undead and cooperative – e.g., a friend killed by a vampire this afternoon, coming back as a vampire tonight and desperately seeking a cure – then the casting might at least seem plausible. However, Resurrection affects dead people, and "undead" isn't "dead" by definition. This seems doomed to failure, like casting Shape Water on a fire or Turn Zombie on a live person . . . that might seem boring, but a spell's size and difficulty shouldn't exempt it from requiring a suitable target. That would be like saying, "Well, if we take a long time to cast Shape Water ceremonially with 1,000 energy, shouldn't we be able to break the rules and affect a fire?" Uh, no. If you make the subject plain old dead first (e.g., staking your vampire friend through the heart, or beating the tar out of an enemy lich), then I can't see why Resurrection wouldn't work as advertised on the corpse, restoring it to life. Of course, you get back the person who used to live in that body. If the undead being was animated by a spirit other than its old self, then the newly alive subject will have no clue what its body had been used for while undead, and likely not know anything about undeath, treasures, etc. If the undead being was responsible for its own undeath, then the resurrected subject is likely to be very angry and uncooperative. As for Healing magic in general, the answer is "it depends." There's no "positive energy vs. negative energy" conflict, and no spiritual element, as written. Healing spells that restore HP or limbs mechanically knit meat and bone, and work on anything that has meat and bone; the undead don't heal naturally because they have Unhealing, but that disadvantage specifically allows magical healing. On the other hand, many Healing spells are worthless on the undead: If you have Immunity to Metabolic Hazards, then Cure Disease and Neutralize Poison won't ever be relevant; if you have Doesn't Sleep, then Awaken is pointless; if you have no FP, then Lend Energy and Recover Energy don't do anything; Final Rest explicitly has no effect on undead who've already risen; and so on. Generally, the undead being's traits as an undead being determine which spells work; for instance, you can't do an end run by saying "Liches are created using a deadly poison potion, so Instant Neutralize Poison should kill a lich," because the lich's current traits include Immunity to Metabolic Hazards, which means that "poisoned" isn't a valid state for a lich. __________________ Sean "Dr. Kromm" Punch <kromm@sjgames.com> *GURPS* Line Editor, Steve Jackson Games My DreamWidth [Just *GURPS* News]

12-15-2010, 11:51 AM	#9
Gangrel44 Join Date: Nov 2007	Re: What happens when a PC casts a Resurection spell on an undead? In my games..say if you killed a vampire permanently and you cast a resurection spell on it...it would return to life or in this case unlife. For the sole fact and reason it died as a vampire and it would be brought back as a vampire.

12-15-2010, 01:32 PM	#10
Grouchy Chris Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: The City of Subdued Excitement	Re: What happens when a PC casts a Resurection spell on an undead? Interestingly, the description of Resurrection doesn't say it works only on the dead. Instead, it "brings the subject back to life," and does not mention anything about what condition the subject may have been in beforehand. It also doesn't say it breaks any curses or other spells the subject is under. Arguably, a Zombie spell is broken when the subject is no longer a dead body. But, arguably, it's not. (If "dead" and "undead" are disjoint categories, then the subject of a Zombie spell hasn't been a dead body since the spell was cast. This implies that the spell's initiation depends on the deadness of the body, but its continuing operation does not. Semantics is fun!) This opens up the possibility of having a live, resurrected person who remains the subject of the Zombie spell. The wounds would heal, the lungs would breathe, the blood would circulate, but the body would still remain under the necromancer's control. And the mind would be stuck in there, unable to motivate the body to do anything the necromancer doesn't command it to do. Creepy. I don't think I'd allow it in my game, because this situation is incompatible with my preferred metaphysics. But I could see other games where it would fit in nicely.