03-22-2013, 04:26 PM | #1 |
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Face & Neck location damage multiplier
Ok I've been thinking about this, and i'm struggling to get the justification for why there's such limited additional damage for targeting these locations (necks not as bad as face though).
On thing I'm leaving aside the 1 in 6 chance of getting the artery/vital etc as there is an equivalent of this for most locations in MA. First of all neck, , this is a small area thats pretty full of high value objects. Also there's not much in there protecting them. Certainly when compared to the torso which has comparable injury multipliers except for cutting and crushing. More over it doesn't even get a knock down mod. I.e it's treated as vulnerable to injury as the torso except against ct & cr attacks. This doesn't seem right, if nothing else a bullet/arrow/spear to the throat/neck would seem to me to be worse than one to the torso? I'm not advocating a straight x4 brain hit multiplier, as I guess its possible to manage to miss the major blood vessels, airway, spinal column and cord etc, but I think the odds of doing all that are higher enough to warrant an extra +1 to all multipliers (and maybe making cutting x3). If nothing else if a 4pt cutting attack on a St10 arm is enough to cripple it beyond use, what's that going to do to a neck? Now the face, Now I can see that there's not actually much in the face that if its damaged it will immediately threaten your life (unlike the neck), my main issue is that there really isn't that much of the face in front of the really important stuff. Or put it this way a spear thrust to the face doesn't have to be very strong before its hitting the brain, top of the spinal chord or lots of blood vessels etc, etc. While you could argue that this is more a point for thrusting attacks, I'd say its true of cutting attacks as well because only a pretty superficial (i.e low damage roll) with a sword is going to stay just in the face and not go deeper. Consequently again I'd add an extra +1 to all multipliers, except corrosive which I'd keep at x1.5 and cr which I'd keep at x1. Again if a 4pt hit from a sword can cripple an ST10 arm or a leg, what's that going to do swung into your face? The face does at least have a hefty knockdown mod, which I guess you could argue is enough of a penalty in terms of the overall result of a combat given what happens the next round when you're -4 to defend. Now I know sometimes the over penetration of torso rules from HT are quoted as something that makes neck and face hits comparatively worse. However I'd argue that is designed more to make large wounds to the torso more survivable rather then make such wounds to the neck and face less survivable. One last thing I would probably also argue that the neck should -6 to hit and thus a harder target than the face because yes while the face is a more mobile target, the neck is smaller one and a more difficult one due to the flinching and reactions of the body (think how naturally you lower your chin or dip your shoulder, or otherwise retract it to protect it). Anyway am I over thinking this, is this just a game balance thing (i'd argue the hit mods take care of that) and GURPS doesn't strike me as the kind of system where game balance overrules effect completely, otherwise why have locations at all. Any thoughts? Cheers TD Last edited by Tomsdad; 03-23-2013 at 02:31 AM. |
03-22-2013, 04:38 PM | #2 |
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier
Face gives a 1/6 chance of getting the brain with penetrating attacks. And enhanced knockdown which is a pretty big deal.
I think neck actually has more wounding modifiers than that? But I could be wrong. It does have nastier bleeding. And the spine. (See Martial Arts for wounding rules enhancements.)
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03-22-2013, 04:43 PM | #3 |
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Canada
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Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier
People get shot, stabbed, and punched in the face on a pretty regular basis. It's not lethal. Your face is very much like a crumple-zone for the "important" part of your head ie your brain.
A broken nose, crushed cheekbones, fractures around the sinuses, lost teeth, or even a broken jaw isn't going to kill you. It will make you miserable but that's different. Similarly, getting shot in the face isn't (necessarily) a big deal. What's a big deal is having the bullet go through the face into the brain, but that's not guarenteed and only possible for attacks from the front to the rear - attacks from the side can pass entirely through your face without striking anything even remotely vital (through one cheek and out the other, for example). Even from the front, a bullet (or arrow) can go through the face and out the back of the head spending the entire time below the skull and to the side of the spine and never risking either. The arteries are more at risk from this sort of shot, but depending on your fat or muscle levels, there's a decent chance even the arteries will be missed.
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03-22-2013, 08:46 PM | #4 | |
Join Date: Apr 2005
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Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier
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It's also a major wound, which means a hit to the face is forcing a knockdown/out roll at -5. Failure stuns, failure by 5 KOs. Even a single point of injury to the face forces a knockdown/out roll at the same odds as slicing off their arm. That seems like a good place for it, to me. A hit to the head that doesn't damage the neck or brain isn't going to do a lot of life-threatening damage (HP loss), but it's going to HURT. |
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03-22-2013, 11:06 PM | #5 |
GURPS Line Editor
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Montréal, Québec
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Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier
What makes the neck, specifically, a nasty target is several things:
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03-23-2013, 02:14 AM | #6 | |||||||||||
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier
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are you saying that wounds to the face and neck are when all else is equal just as dangerous as hits to the torso? However although I'm thinking of keeping the x1 mod for cr, to avoid fist fights ending in death after a few punches, and to show the crumple zone effect you mention. Cr damage covers such a wide range of damage sources. Quote:
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look at this side on MRI look at what's behind the soft palette Quote:
Basically yes i agree you can get a hit to the face that passes through and doesn't hit something major (it exits the body before it gets chance) and yes people to survive getting shot in the face with bullets following the line of skull or getting lodged in the cavities etc. However in general I think you are lucky to get one of these results rather than unlucky not to get one. I.e the opposite from torso hits. Quote:
Basically a 3pt spear thrust is major wound to a St10 arm or leg rendering them useless, what do we think that look like in a neck or face. Last edited by Tomsdad; 03-23-2013 at 02:45 AM. |
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03-23-2013, 02:30 AM | #7 | |||
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier
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Yes technically you right if you don't blow through the face and hit the brain, stem or chord you're 'OK', but try and picture what a leg crippling spear thrust goes if its in your neck or head (below the nasal cavity), there's just not that much room in there to absorb this damage. |
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03-23-2013, 02:35 AM | #8 | |
Join Date: Oct 2005
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Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier
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Edit: Greater than HP/2 to cripple, not at least HP/2. Last edited by gjc8; 03-23-2013 at 02:52 AM. |
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03-23-2013, 02:36 AM | #9 |
Join Date: Apr 2005
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Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier
A 3-point spear thrust to the limb is only halfway to a major wound. The wounding multiplier for impaling, huge piercing, and large piercing is only 1x to the limbs. A stab that is strong enough to cripple a limb (6hp) will deal 12hp to the neck, which is not only going to incapacitate the target very quickly, but is going to bleed severely (HT-4 every 30 seconds, as opposed to HT-1 every minute for the arm wound). The difference is huge. A HT10 person is quite likely to survive the arm wound, and if he does bleed out, would take a minimum of about half an hour to do so (Possibly much longer). The later faces possible death in only 4 minutes, and is unlikely to survive without aid.
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03-23-2013, 03:01 AM | #10 |
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier
On thing, given that this is of all of course really a matter of perception (in how abstract rules attempt to model what we think is correct), could I be looking at this in the wrong way.
Is the lack of increased wounding mod more a function of how difficult it is to target these area's i.e its more difficult to lnd a telling blow here? This combines the to hit roll and the damage roll in a way that doesn't seem to apply in other area's of GURPS but here's what i'm thinking. A 3pt spear thrust to a leg is a chunk of sharp metal destroying enough muscle or tendons and bone to stop it from functioning, and involving a reasonable amount of tissue damage*. But a 3 pt spear wound to the neck while having the same damaging effect (6 pt's) actually involves less tissue damage, this would model the idea that the general tissue of the neck is more 'important' than that of the leg? One other way I thought about this is having a crippling effect on the neck**, this would allow you to keep your superficial wounds, but have a telling blow having more severe consequences. Of course the thing is I can't think of what a crippling effect on the neck** would be short of a taking you out of the fight instantly! *yes you can stop a leg from function with a small mount of tissue damage but that not the kind of wound implied by 'major wound' which seems to be a large amount of damage that by dint of the amount of damage done also cripples a limb, the bleeding rules support that as well. ** and the more I look at that MRI and my anatomy books I think anything behind a the face and below the nose is neck, which I could do as a face and then neck wound, but ultimately I think you can have the same effect by just upping the face mods. |
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