[Social Engineering] Resisting / Misleading / etc. enemy Empathy? (Hard to Read?)

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

What Kromm had to say:

Just a note that some of the things were obsolete ad hoc rulings that came out before Social Engineering.

Originally Posted by Icelander

This makes Empathy useless for any adventuring plot and disallowed in any realistic game.

Useless? On the contrary, quite useful. Disallowed? Kromm said near-psychic. It's certainly disturbing, being an irrational ability, but so is charisma, or popularity without a cause, or the trust in axioms, or pretty much any phenomenon that is not based on rationality and logic. In terms of game traits, the only truly nasty thing about Empathy is that it doesn't care much about standard tin-hat countermeasures.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

In terms of game traits, the only truly nasty thing about Empathy is that it doesn't care much about standard tin-hat countermeasures.

Isn't that the point of wild talents the standard power counter measures don't necessarily work on them?

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

Isn't that the point of wild talents the standard power counter measures don't necessarily work on them?

Yeah, but at least you can resist any flavour of Mind Reading with Will and any Telepathic reading with Mind Block.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Yeah, but at least you can resist any flavour of Mind Reading with Will and any Telepathic reading with Mind Block.

I see no more reason that Empathy needs to be resisted than Body Language skill needs to be resisted, as that is what Empathy is, and untran knacks at Detect lies and Body Language

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

I see no more reason that Empathy needs to be resisted than Body Language skill needs to be resisted, as that is what Empathy is, and untran knacks at Detect lies and Body Language

Except that Detect Lies and Body Language can be resisted by Acting.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Except that Detect Lies and Body Language can be resisted by Acting.

So what stopping Empathy? As the skills are described as working like Empathy

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

So what stopping Empathy? As the skills are described as working like Empathy

Like Empathy. But resisted, unlike Empathy. Kinda makes sense since Body Language is MUCH cheaper than Empathy (Sense-Based or Hypersensory).

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Useless? On the contrary, quite useful.

If any PC has it, any plot that relies on uncertainty about the true motives and personality of someone else for any part of its dramatic impact, i.e. pretty much any plot with any layer of complexity, is short-circuited. Falls flat. Doesn't work.

As the quote makes clear, if the trait is interpreted like this, it eliminates the tension and prevents the heroic adventuring of the mentioned source material.

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Disallowed? Kromm said near-psychic. It's certainly disturbing, being an irrational ability, but so is charisma, or popularity without a cause, or the trust in axioms, or pretty much any phenomenon that is not based on rationality and logic. In terms of game traits, the only truly nasty thing about Empathy is that it doesn't care much about standard tin-hat countermeasures.

In real life, there is certainly a spectrum of sensitivity to other people's motives and the ability to get a read for their personality. It is, however, never unresisted* and absolutely never reliable enough for heroic characters to 'string up Cypher as soon as he makes his deal'.

*Even the best observers of human nature are suspectible to being fooled by the best deceivers.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Icelander

If any PC has it, any plot that relies on uncertainty about the true motives and personality of someone else for any part of its dramatic impact, i.e. pretty much any plot with any layer of complexity, is short-circuited. Falls flat. Doesn't work.

As the quote makes clear, if the trait is interpreted like this, it eliminates the tension and prevents the heroic adventuring of the mentioned source material.

There's a difference between knowing that a person has a hidden agenda, and knowing what that agenda is. Everyone knew that Snape was some sort of traitor. Few predicted the nature, complexity, and final goal of his plot.

Originally Posted by Icelander

In real life, there is certainly a spectrum of sensitivity to other people's motives and the ability to get a read for their personality. It is, however, never unresisted* and absolutely never reliable enough for heroic characters to 'string up Cypher as soon as he makes his deal'.

*Even the best observers of human nature are suspectible to being fooled by the best deceivers.

As I said before, with the publishing of Social Engineering, I would be very careful about relying on an old ruling which was, quite likely, ad hoc and not result of careful playtest and consideration. Also, as above: how string up is string up? Knowing that there's an unmentioned catch in the deal is not the same as knowing what it is and how to prevent it before it is too late.

Edit: I also suspect that best deceivers should indeed have the (missing) Hard to Read Advantage or the like. Empathy is an Advantage, so it should make the user qualitatively, not just quantitatively, better than someone without. Just like ETS (for an Exotic example), or High Pain Threshold, or Combat Reflexes (no freezes).

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

There's a difference between knowing that a person has a hidden agenda, and knowing what that agenda is. Everyone knew that Snape was some sort of traitor. Few predicted the nature, complexity, and final goal of his plot.

Someone with Empathy and a decent IQ would have known beyond reasonable doubt whether he was a good guy or bad guy if it worked like Kromm had it working. That's anti-fun and a trait that worked like that would need careful labelling and advice on using it (or not), like Unfazable for horror games.