Stop dodging my bullets!

Juca · 10-30-2017, 12:07 PM

I know that I'm not the only one that finds strange that the characters can dodge bullets, and that the reasoning that the target is dodging "where the gun is aimed at", and not the actual bullet, while sensible, still leaves a bad taste. The way the rules work, dodging don't makes you harder to hit, it gives you a chance to "not get hit after getting hit", unafected by the shooter's skill (unless in automatic fire, of course).
What if dodging gave the shooter a penalty equals to the target dodging value (without the +3 for active defenses)? What would break? Thinking quickly, it makes harder to actually hit, but lowers the occurance of "unhitable" targets with high enought dodge. Also, dodging should be an action chosen simultaneously with the common action of the turn. Either the character is dodging when attacked, or he is not. He can't declare that he is dodging during an attack.
Any thoughts?

sir_pudding · 10-30-2017, 12:18 PM

Are you using Prediction Shots? What about Restricted Dodge Against Firearms?

I personally wouldn't like a passive automatic penalty like this one, it isn't very GURPS-like, players like to be able roll defense, and it seems to make dodge and drop irrelevant, which is counter to my experience with what the Marines call "rushing" and the Army calls "bounding".

AlexanderHowl · 10-30-2017, 01:12 PM

Combat in GURPS is very harsh, especially when you are talking about against modern weapons, as a few bullets from a 9mm pistol can kill an average human beings in GURPS without difficulty (and put them into traction for a few weeks even if they survive). It is also very, very difficult to hit an aware target IRL, otherwise the US military would kill more than one enemy target for every one million bullets fired or so. The combination of the two makes 'dodging bullets' necessary for game balance and a reasonably realistic way to model the miss rates of modern combatants. Otherwise average GURPS combatants achieve accuracy rates that are orders of magnitude greater than veteran soldiers.

Using your awareness of the capabilities of modern firearms to avoid bullets is actually part of modern combat training, so avoiding where you expect someone to fire is realistic. If you want an enemy to avoid 'dodging' a bullet, use stealth to approach from an unobserved direction and snipe them from cover. Snipers are frighteningly effective not only because they are good at firearms but also because they are firing on unaware targets.

Juca · 10-30-2017, 01:22 PM

Sir Pudding, unfortunatelly I don't know where to find Prediction Shots, nor I have access to Tactical Shooting anymore (a friend of mine lend me a printed version some time ago, but I gave it back after a while), so I don't know about Prediction Shots, and, from what I remember about Harsh Realism, you still dodge, but only when aware of being attacked, which, for me, don't change that much. Isn't something like that?

AlexanderHowl, actually, no modern military (or police force or anything like that) teaches you "to avoid where you expect someone to fire". We are taught to use cover, to move erratically, and to not expose yourself unless necessary. The only thing remotelly associated with dodge is moving erratically, and even them you are on the move, not on a spot, trying to predict where the gun will be pointed.

sir_pudding · 10-30-2017, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juca

Sir Pudding, unfortunatelly I don't know where to find Prediction Shots, nor I have access to Tactical Shooting anymore

Both rules are in Martial Arts p. 121 and 123 respectively.

Quote:

so I don't know about Prediction Shots,

Prediction Shots is mostly the same as Deceptive Attack except it has no effect on Block or Parry.

Quote:

and, from what I remember about Harsh Realism, you still dodge, but only when aware of being attacked, which, for me, don't change that much. Isn't something like that?

That is just the normal rule for active defenses.

With Restricted Dodge Against Firearms, if you take one of a list of specified maneuvers you may declare evasive movement against one shooter that you can see (in the Tactical Shooting playtest I suggested extending this to include elements that are adding their RoFs together for Suppressing Fire as well, this didn't make the cut, but I strongly suggest doing so), which allows you to dodge if attacked by that shooter, and you must roll Acrobatics and have dropped prone during your turn to claim either bonus.

Quote:

AlexanderHowl, actually, no modern military (or police force or anything like that) teaches you "to avoid where you expect someone to fire". We are taught to use cover, to move erratically, and to not expose yourself unless necessary. The only thing remotelly associated with dodge is moving erratically, and even them you are on the move, not on a spot, trying to predict where the gun will be pointed.

I was taught to drop after movement, which your proposed rule doesn't support.

Anthony · 10-30-2017, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juca

AlexanderHowl, actually, no modern military (or police force or anything like that) teaches you "to avoid where you expect someone to fire". We are taught to use cover, to move erratically, and to not expose yourself unless necessary. The only thing remotelly associated with dodge is moving erratically, and even them you are on the move, not on a spot, trying to predict where the gun will be pointed.

The fact that GURPS allows infinite dodges pretty much requires dodge to be significantly about erratic movement, not something reactive.

acrosome · 10-30-2017, 04:01 PM

Honestly, I've never been impressed with GURPS's default mechanic for dodging gunfire. I agree that the "just dodge it like any other attack" is profoundly unsatisfying. The Harsh Realism rules are a great start, though. In modern combat you have so many people pointing guns in your direction that it's a practical impossibility to dodge any one of them- assuming that you can even see them- so instead one moves evasively. Though, to be honest, almost all fire in modern combat is unaimed, suppressive fire, or opportunity fire anyway. (That's where you hear laymen bemoaning how many rounds it takes on average to kill an enemy combatant- SO MUCH fire is suppressive fire, nowadays. It's important.)

I understand the "dodging where the gun is pointing" thing- it's to simulate something you see in the movies, to whit: Mook points a gun at our protagonist's head, whereupon our protagonist whips his head out of the way before Mook can fire, so Mook misses to presumably be disarmed and dispatched. It's almost cinematic by definition in that it seems pretty clear to me that it's trying to simulate something from the movies. And, heck, lets be honest- even at it's most realistic baseline GURPS is still a damned cinematic game. But such a dodge is at least marginally realistic at very close ranges- it could be done, and real life people do train to do things like knock an attacker's pistol to the side (though that would be a parry), twist around it, actually step closer so the gun is now behind you, etc. (And in fact they train to dodge to an attacker's strong side since it's harder to move the gun in that direction.) Note that all of these techniques depend upon ludicrously close ranges.

But it gets harder and harder the further you are from the Mook, because he only has to change the angle of the gun a very tiny amount whereas you have to move your entire body. I would personally propose that you can dodge the muzzle as described, but at -1 per yard from the muzzle- assume a gun muzzle is in one of the firer's front hexes or something. If you're more than a few yards away you're better off using some other mechanism, like a "dodge-and-drop" to behind cover.

So this, plus the "evasive movement" or "dodge and drop" options under the Harsh Realism rules should cover things. But a lot of responsibility falls upon the GM who wants to run a "realistic" gunfight. As I've said, there should be a lot of pop-up fire, opportunity fire, suppressive fire, etc. So a lot comes down to NPC behavior. Lets face it- most NPCs do not behave realistically.

Andreas · 10-30-2017, 04:12 PM

A simple improvement would be to assign a penalty to dodging attacks using only erratic movement (dodging a bullet is definitely harder than dodging a thrown rock!) and to introduce a penalty for multiple reactive dodges. -2 for erratic movement and -2 per additional reactive dodge might work.

A more realistic, but more complicated solution would be to handle erratic movement in the attack roll phase. A penalty to the attack roll, or even a cap to the roll when the distance is large enough and the movement is unpredictable enough that you necessarily have to rely on luck. Reactive dodges can then be handled in the same way as they are now except that you get a bonus or penalty depending on how much time you have between predicting where the attack will come from and the attack arriving.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Otherwise average GURPS combatants achieve accuracy rates that are orders of magnitude greater than veteran soldiers.

Average GURPS combatant most likely on average fires under far better conditions than real life veteran soldiers, so that might be entirely appropriate.

Andreas · 10-30-2017, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acrosome

But it gets harder and harder the further you are from the Mook, because he only has to change the angle of the gun a very tiny amount whereas you have to move your entire body. I would personally propose that you can dodge the muzzle as described, but at -1 per yard from the muzzle- assume a gun muzzle is in one of the firer's front hexes or something. If you're more than a few yards away you're better off using some other mechanism, like a "dodge-and-drop" to behind cover.

While it is much easier to dodge like that when you are close, -1 per yard would be way too harsh. It is not just an issue of how much the attacker have to change the angle of the gun. Reaction time and the fact that the attacker have to make more precise adjustments at longer distances also matter.

A sniper can't without penalty attack multiple people standing next too each other on the same turn despite the change to the angle of the gun being very small. For the same reason, it would not be trivial for the sniper to hit someone trying to dodge the line of fire.

AlexanderHowl · 10-30-2017, 04:53 PM

The sniper has already made a mistake if someone knows enough to start dodging. If a GM does not like their PCs dodging bullets, just have them deal with surprise attacks from firearms. It is just as fair as banning dodging bullets because the effect is the same, dead PCs, and you are not depriving your PCs of an base rule that would potentially keep them alive.

10-30-2017, 12:07 PM	#1
Juca Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Neverland	Stop dodging my bullets! I know that I'm not the only one that finds strange that the characters can dodge bullets, and that the reasoning that the target is dodging "where the gun is aimed at", and not the actual bullet, while sensible, still leaves a bad taste. The way the rules work, dodging don't makes you harder to hit, it gives you a chance to "not get hit after getting hit", unafected by the shooter's skill (unless in automatic fire, of course). What if dodging gave the shooter a penalty equals to the target dodging value (without the +3 for active defenses)? What would break? Thinking quickly, it makes harder to actually hit, but lowers the occurance of "unhitable" targets with high enought dodge. Also, dodging should be an action chosen simultaneously with the common action of the turn. Either the character is dodging when attacked, or he is not. He can't declare that he is dodging during an attack. Any thoughts?

10-30-2017, 12:18 PM	#2
sir_pudding Wielder of Smart Pants Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Ventura CA	Re: Stop dodging my bullets! Are you using Prediction Shots? What about Restricted Dodge Against Firearms? I personally wouldn't like a passive automatic penalty like this one, it isn't very GURPS-like, players like to be able roll defense, and it seems to make dodge and drop irrelevant, which is counter to my experience with what the Marines call "rushing" and the Army calls "bounding". Last edited by sir_pudding; 10-30-2017 at 04:56 PM.

10-30-2017, 01:12 PM	#3
AlexanderHowl Join Date: Feb 2016	Re: Stop dodging my bullets! Combat in GURPS is very harsh, especially when you are talking about against modern weapons, as a few bullets from a 9mm pistol can kill an average human beings in GURPS without difficulty (and put them into traction for a few weeks even if they survive). It is also very, very difficult to hit an aware target IRL, otherwise the US military would kill more than one enemy target for every one million bullets fired or so. The combination of the two makes 'dodging bullets' necessary for game balance and a reasonably realistic way to model the miss rates of modern combatants. Otherwise average GURPS combatants achieve accuracy rates that are orders of magnitude greater than veteran soldiers. Using your awareness of the capabilities of modern firearms to avoid bullets is actually part of modern combat training, so avoiding where you expect someone to fire is realistic. If you want an enemy to avoid 'dodging' a bullet, use stealth to approach from an unobserved direction and snipe them from cover. Snipers are frighteningly effective not only because they are good at firearms but also because they are firing on unaware targets.

10-30-2017, 01:22 PM	#4
Juca Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Neverland	Re: Stop dodging my bullets! Sir Pudding, unfortunatelly I don't know where to find Prediction Shots, nor I have access to Tactical Shooting anymore (a friend of mine lend me a printed version some time ago, but I gave it back after a while), so I don't know about Prediction Shots, and, from what I remember about Harsh Realism, you still dodge, but only when aware of being attacked, which, for me, don't change that much. Isn't something like that? AlexanderHowl, actually, no modern military (or police force or anything like that) teaches you "to avoid where you expect someone to fire". We are taught to use cover, to move erratically, and to not expose yourself unless necessary. The only thing remotelly associated with dodge is moving erratically, and even them you are on the move, not on a spot, trying to predict where the gun will be pointed.

10-30-2017, 04:01 PM	#7
acrosome Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: The Land of Enchantment	Re: Stop dodging my bullets! Honestly, I've never been impressed with GURPS's default mechanic for dodging gunfire. I agree that the "just dodge it like any other attack" is profoundly unsatisfying. The Harsh Realism rules are a great start, though. In modern combat you have so many people pointing guns in your direction that it's a practical impossibility to dodge any one of them- assuming that you can even see them- so instead one moves evasively. Though, to be honest, almost all fire in modern combat is unaimed, suppressive fire, or opportunity fire anyway. (That's where you hear laymen bemoaning how many rounds it takes on average to kill an enemy combatant- SO MUCH fire is suppressive fire, nowadays. It's important.) I understand the "dodging where the gun is pointing" thing- it's to simulate something you see in the movies, to whit: Mook points a gun at our protagonist's head, whereupon our protagonist whips his head out of the way before Mook can fire, so Mook misses to presumably be disarmed and dispatched. It's almost cinematic by definition in that it seems pretty clear to me that it's trying to simulate something from the movies. And, heck, lets be honest- even at it's most realistic baseline GURPS is still a damned cinematic game. But such a dodge is at least marginally realistic at very close ranges- it could be done, and real life people do train to do things like knock an attacker's pistol to the side (though that would be a parry), twist around it, actually step closer so the gun is now behind you, etc. (And in fact they train to dodge to an attacker's strong side since it's harder to move the gun in that direction.) Note that all of these techniques depend upon ludicrously close ranges. But it gets harder and harder the further you are from the Mook, because he only has to change the angle of the gun a very tiny amount whereas you have to move your entire body. I would personally propose that you can dodge the muzzle as described, but at -1 per yard from the muzzle- assume a gun muzzle is in one of the firer's front hexes or something. If you're more than a few yards away you're better off using some other mechanism, like a "dodge-and-drop" to behind cover. So this, plus the "evasive movement" or "dodge and drop" options under the Harsh Realism rules should cover things. But a lot of responsibility falls upon the GM who wants to run a "realistic" gunfight. As I've said, there should be a lot of pop-up fire, opportunity fire, suppressive fire, etc. So a lot comes down to NPC behavior. Lets face it- most NPCs do not behave realistically. __________________ I'd need to get a grant and go shoot a thousand goats to figure it out.

10-30-2017, 04:53 PM	#10
AlexanderHowl Join Date: Feb 2016	Re: Stop dodging my bullets! The sniper has already made a mistake if someone knows enough to start dodging. If a GM does not like their PCs dodging bullets, just have them deal with surprise attacks from firearms. It is just as fair as banning dodging bullets because the effect is the same, dead PCs, and you are not depriving your PCs of an base rule that would potentially keep them alive.