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Old 01-06-2016, 05:45 AM   #11
Huscurian
 
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My inaugural post is up, so please pardon the soap box as I discuss why you should create your own setting instead of convert one that already exists.

And I wanted to thank you guys for your warm response, and let you know that from now on, I'll be posting on Thursday, in keeping with Douglas Cole's "GURPS Day."
Mailanka... I never knew about your blog until I checked your thread. Most particularly this one.

I am trying to convert SW capital ships/starfighters/freighters/transports into Spaceships format just for fun and kicks. Your blog sounded like I shouldn't create this since the ideas behind it is copyrighted. For one, I don't plan on winning any Ennie awards. I don't plan on selling the materials. In fact, I plan on contributing to something.

There's a setting I want to convert to GURPS: Deathstalker series by Simon Green. By statting out the setting, its TLs, the characters, ships, etc. and so on, I thought it'd be pretty cool to play a setting like it. I know the Deathstalker series is copyrighted but I can't resist a cool setting like that!

I also have a homebrew setting that I haven't gotten around to finish just yet but I do have a campaign in the works regarding that setting.
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Old 01-06-2016, 05:54 AM   #12
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Mailanka... I never knew about your blog until I checked your thread. Most particularly this one.

I am trying to convert SW capital ships/starfighters/freighters/transports into Spaceships format just for fun and kicks. Your blog sounded like I shouldn't create this since the ideas behind it is copyrighted. For one, I don't plan on winning any Ennie awards. I don't plan on selling the materials. In fact, I plan on contributing to something.

There's a setting I want to convert to GURPS: Deathstalker series by Simon Green. By statting out the setting, its TLs, the characters, ships, etc. and so on, I thought it'd be pretty cool to play a setting like it. I know the Deathstalker series is copyrighted but I can't resist a cool setting like that!

I also have a homebrew setting that I haven't gotten around to finish just yet but I do have a campaign in the works regarding that setting.
I knew it would be a controversial post, which is not exactly putting your best foot forward, but allow me to make my case. I've actually been watching your posts already, and I'll actually probably reference them in later posts (though, it looks like my schedule means they'll be much later). In particular, I found your choice of TL, and how you changed it, interesting and worth commenting on.

Yes, I believe you're making a mistake by converting Star Wars. It's a fine mental exercise, but I've seen this cycle before: Your conversion will be imperfect. People will disagree with how you model tie fighters. They already do. You'll have to revisit them, and then other people will disagree. You'll never make the perfect tie-fighter. You'll work and work on your setting, and you'll never get it right, and then you'll quit. At least, that's how it worked for me.

And there's already a tie-fighter in GURPS. It's called the Typhoon-Class Deep Space Fighter, and it's in SS 4. Now, it's not actually a tie-fighter, but it's pretty close and it fulfills a similar role. If you just took that one and, perhaps modified it, you'd have a pretty good stand in. The setting work you've done has likely taken far longer than just accepting the Typhoon-fighter, which means you'll take longer before your campaign hits the table.

If you set aside the need to convert Star Wars and, instead, drew inspiration from Star Wars for your own setting, then the fact that people disagree with your vision of a tie fighter is irrelevant, because it's not a tie-fighter, it's a Type-X Space Superiority Fighter, or whatever. Or you could just grab the "imperfect" typhoon space fighter and play now.

Creation is empowering, because what you create is your own. Conversion is disempowering, because you are slaved to someone else's vision. Disney can now say that you have to stop your conversion, or that your conversion is wrong, or it could make a license agreement with SJGames to produce an official GURPS Star Wars that would invalidate all of your work. But none of this can happen with your own material.

I'm not the boss of you, of course. I'm just one guy. I'm not going to bust down your door and take your GURPS license from you. I wouldn't even turn my nose up at you if you invited me to join your finished GURPS Star Wars campaign. I'm making a suggestion. I'm pointing out the problems inherent in the conversion process and suggesting you try to create instead.

I understand the desire to convert. I used to convert myself. But everything that's fun about conversion exists in creation, and creation has none of the headaches that conversion has.

You have a specific vision of Star Wars, a good vision. Put your own stamp on that vision, take control of it, and go your own way. That's what I'm saying.
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Old 01-06-2016, 06:01 AM   #13
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Your post seems very relevant to Exalted and the cloud of setting variants that change certain things in Creation. I might want to eventually quote/link to you, actually.
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Old 01-06-2016, 07:00 AM   #14
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You have a specific vision of Star Wars, a good vision. Put your own stamp on that vision, take control of it, and go your own way. That's what I'm saying.
I would add for agreement: let your vision stand on its own merits rather than trying to impose it on Star Wars.

(Postmodernist arguments aside, none of us fans "own" Star Wars, or any other such property; we have no ethical right to interpret it for anyone other than ourselves, and the owners of the property are free to contradict our interpretation at any time. We are not compelled to like their work, whether or not it contradicts our preferences, but they are even less obligated to express our personal vision; in fact, they are incapable of doing so and are not accountable for doing so or not.)
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Old 01-06-2016, 07:14 AM   #15
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I knew it would be a controversial post, which is not exactly putting your best foot forward, but allow me to make my case. I've actually been watching your posts already, and I'll actually probably reference them in later posts (though, it looks like my schedule means they'll be much later). In particular, I found your choice of TL, and how you changed it, interesting and worth commenting on.
My choice of TL used to be TL10. Then I took a look at specific changes in Spaceships and went with TL11^. I figured it had a lot to do with how fighters are treated in GURPS format.

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Yes, I believe you're making a mistake by converting Star Wars. It's a fine mental exercise, but I've seen this cycle before: Your conversion will be imperfect. People will disagree with how you model tie fighters. They already do. You'll have to revisit them, and then other people will disagree. You'll never make the perfect tie-fighter. You'll work and work on your setting, and you'll never get it right, and then you'll quit. At least, that's how it worked for me.
So you speak from experience. Which setting did you actually try converting out of curiosity?

As for the people who claim that I may have made some wrong changes to specific fighters, capital ships, freighters, etc... TBH, I can't always please people. That's the mindset that every person needs to have. Not everyone agrees with the conversion and there's no need to truly accept one statblock as the truest conversion over all others.

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And there's already a tie-fighter in GURPS. It's called the Typhoon-Class Deep Space Fighter, and it's in SS 4. Now, it's not actually a tie-fighter, but it's pretty close and it fulfills a similar role. If you just took that one and, perhaps modified it, you'd have a pretty good stand in. The setting work you've done has likely taken far longer than just accepting the Typhoon-fighter, which means you'll take longer before your campaign hits the table.
I'll check into SS4 and see what the Typhoon-class deep space fighter is all about.

True, it'll take longer. The only thing that takes me longer is statting out every single bit of Star Wars. Mind you, my campaign does not mean that I have to stat out every single thing. The only things I need to do is stat out relevant things that are going to be helpful in the campaign. It would be nice to have actual data on every single thing in Star Wars but it's a start with what I can work with.

For instance, my campaign will only need a Victory-class Star Destroyer, an Interdictor, an Imperial Star Destroyer MK I, Imperial/Rebellion starfighters, Independent starfighters, freighters, industrial haulers, and other minor bits. Then it's good to go. Besides, I don't intend to stat out every single bit in Star Wars. With the campaign done, I can start adding more just to expand. :)

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If you set aside the need to convert Star Wars and, instead, drew inspiration from Star Wars for your own setting ... Creation is empowering, because what you create is your own. Conversion is disempowering, because you are slaved to someone else's vision. ... I'm making a suggestion. I'm pointing out the problems inherent in the conversion process and suggesting you try to create instead.
I could. It's not a bad idea, TBH. I'd be OK with homebrewing my own setting that takes inspiration from Star Wars, Deathstalker, and a few other books to create an unique setting in which the players could actually do something. Perhaps Force powers are used as psionic powers with devastating consequences. Perhaps lightsabers are replaced with stronger than any types of metal swords, disruptor pistols that can only recharge one shot per ten minutes, and a mixture of TLs to go with. This can be a setting I'm really looking forward to someday.

I have one where it's TL9 with specific supersciences but is surrounded by empires that are either TL9^ or much lower. Other empires that have lower TLs do have supersciences that help advance them in some way. Plus, there's a developmental blog that I will be trying to keep track of, if I can. Here it is. This blog will help keep track of what I can remember as far back to when I was 17. I will need to keep the data updated, written into Word 2016, and made into a Sourcebook document.

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I understand the desire to convert. I used to convert myself. But everything that's fun about conversion exists in creation, and creation has none of the headaches that conversion has.
Personally, sometimes creation to me can be a headache because you have to ask yourself many questions before the idea takes root. Even if it takes root, sometimes it can be a pain to actually kill your little darlings to make way for a better idea. Sometimes, this way, it can be painful.

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You have a specific vision of Star Wars, a good vision. Put your own stamp on that vision, take control of it, and go your own way. That's what I'm saying.
I can understand the nature of your post. While controversial, I can't say that you're heretical. You're simply pointing out something that I haven't thought of. It's nice to see it from a different perspective.

However, Inquisitors of the Imperium of Man might not agree. :P
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Old 01-06-2016, 08:12 AM   #16
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My choice of TL used to be TL10. Then I took a look at specific changes in Spaceships and went with TL11^. I figured it had a lot to do with how fighters are treated in GURPS format.
I thought it was an interesting choice because I felt like I could see your logic. I find Star Wars on the cusp between the two myself. For example, the robots seem to fit better at TL 10, and Star Wars lacks most of the transformative technology (like nanotech) that you see at TL 11. But a force sword and force fields and blasters (assuming that Star Wars blasters are charged particle beams and not, say, TL 10 lasers) are all TL 11. But on the other hand, you could make the case that the Old Republic was TL 11, and Star Wars slid back to TL 10. It would certainly emphasize the power and "elegance of another age" of the light saber.

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So you speak from experience. Which setting did you actually try converting out of curiosity?
Oh, let's see: Star Wars, Wheel of Time, Warhammer 40k, and Exalted. None of them panned out... but when I gave up on the Star Wars conversion and just went for a new setting I called Resplendent Star Empire, I had a hit on my hands. Thus, I'm preaching my experience: turn your conversion into your own property, and do your own thing with it, and you'll have a hit.

Quote:
I'll check into SS4 and see what the Typhoon-class deep space fighter is all about.

True, it'll take longer. The only thing that takes me longer is statting out every single bit of Star Wars. Mind you, my campaign does not mean that I have to stat out every single thing. The only things I need to do is stat out relevant things that are going to be helpful in the campaign. It would be nice to have actual data on every single thing in Star Wars but it's a start with what I can work with.
I do want to rush in and say there's nothing wrong with working out these stats, or doing your research. I applaud that and I don't believe that real creators can just conjure material from nothing. We steal and then refurbish, and studying up on material is the first step in stealing. I'm just encouraging you to take the second step and refurbish.

Quote:
For instance, my campaign will only need a Victory-class Star Destroyer, an Interdictor, an Imperial Star Destroyer MK I, Imperial/Rebellion starfighters, Independent starfighters, freighters, industrial haulers, and other minor bits. Then it's good to go. Besides, I don't intend to stat out every single bit in Star Wars. With the campaign done, I can start adding more just to expand. :)
That's healthy. If you watch me build my Psi-Wars setting, you'll see I do much the same: Build a bit, make sure it works, play with it, and then expand.

Also check out the Empire-class dreadnought in SS 3, which you can probably tweak into both your standard destroyer and your interdictor. The Victory class could just be a bigger one, or a Continent-class Super-carrier from SS 4. Your independent starfighters can be other fighters from SS 4, and your freighters can come from SS 2, if you really need them to have stats.

Quote:
I could. It's not a bad idea, TBH. I'd be OK with homebrewing my own setting that takes inspiration from Star Wars, Deathstalker, and a few other books to create an unique setting in which the players could actually do something. Perhaps Force powers are used as psionic powers with devastating consequences. Perhaps lightsabers are replaced with stronger than any types of metal swords, disruptor pistols that can only recharge one shot per ten minutes, and a mixture of TLs to go with. This can be a setting I'm really looking forward to someday.
That's the idea! And you can dig through UT for ideas. Say the hyperdense blade really speaks to you, and you like some ideas in one of the latest pyramid. Why not toss them together? You can build your setting your way, and when your players say "What are we playing," you can say "Well, Psi-Wars is like Star Wars with the serial numbers filed off, and a twist!" and they'll know enough to join in "Cool, can I play something like a wookie bounty hunter?"

Quote:
I have one where it's TL9 with specific supersciences but is surrounded by empires that are either TL9^ or much lower. Other empires that have lower TLs do have supersciences that help advance them in some way. Plus, there's a developmental blog that I will be trying to keep track of, if I can. Here it is. This blog will help keep track of what I can remember as far back to when I was 17. I will need to keep the data updated, written into Word 2016, and made into a Sourcebook document.

Personally, sometimes creation to me can be a headache because you have to ask yourself many questions before the idea takes root. Even if it takes root, sometimes it can be a pain to actually kill your little darlings to make way for a better idea. Sometimes, this way, it can be painful.

I can understand the nature of your post. While controversial, I can't say that you're heretical. You're simply pointing out something that I haven't thought of. It's nice to see it from a different perspective.

However, Inquisitors of the Imperium of Man might not agree. :P
I encourage you to watch the rest of my Psi-Wars series. Even if you have no intention of playing with the resulting setting/campaign, I explain all of the steps so that people like you can see what I'm doing and then can do it themselves for their own settings.
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Old 01-06-2016, 09:30 AM   #17
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Oh, let's see: Star Wars, Wheel of Time, Warhammer 40k, and Exalted. None of them panned out... but when I gave up on the Star Wars conversion and just went for a new setting I called Resplendent Star Empire, I had a hit on my hands. Thus, I'm preaching my experience: turn your conversion into your own property, and do your own thing with it, and you'll have a hit.
Hmm, Resplendent Star Empire. Interesting... Got a link for that?

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I do want to rush in and say there's nothing wrong with working out these stats, or doing your research. I applaud that and I don't believe that real creators can just conjure material from nothing. We steal and then refurbish, and studying up on material is the first step in stealing. I'm just encouraging you to take the second step and refurbish.
Usually, it's just reading up the materials, statting it out, playtesting it, then updating it as I go along. It might take a while to make the conversion work but if it is stealing, I could also be profiting from it entirely. If I'm doing the conversion and playing with it without profit, I don't see it as stealing. I see it as playing something that others might enjoy.

I could be wrong but this is just one of the perspectives that I have.

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That's healthy. If you watch me build my Psi-Wars setting, you'll see I do much the same: Build a bit, make sure it works, play with it, and then expand.
Pretty much. That's how it's going to be with the SW conversion.

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Also check out the Empire-class dreadnought in SS 3, which you can probably tweak into both your standard destroyer and your interdictor. The Victory class could just be a bigger one, or a Continent-class Super-carrier from SS 4. Your independent starfighters can be other fighters from SS 4, and your freighters can come from SS 2, if you really need them to have stats.
I'll check those out. Sounds like you have pretty much understood SS1-7 when I haven't read all of them just yet.

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That's the idea! And you can dig through UT for ideas. Say the hyperdense blade really speaks to you, and you like some ideas in one of the latest pyramid. Why not toss them together? You can build your setting your way, and when your players say "What are we playing," you can say "Well, Psi-Wars is like Star Wars with the serial numbers filed off, and a twist!" and they'll know enough to join in "Cool, can I play something like a wookie bounty hunter?"
Players sure do like trying out different homebrew games. That's what makes it fun. I agree that unique settings, different concepts, or concepts that are familiar can work with others. After all, we don't just play a specific setting for many years on end. We try out different things.

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I encourage you to watch the rest of my Psi-Wars series. Even if you have no intention of playing with the resulting setting/campaign, I explain all of the steps so that people like you can see what I'm doing and then can do it themselves for their own settings.
I'll keep the blog bookmarked.
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Old 01-06-2016, 09:45 AM   #18
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Hmm, Resplendent Star Empire. Interesting... Got a link for that?
I have gobs of material of material I've not finished off, or even made a campaign out of. One of the reasons I started blogging was to turn piles of notes into finished materials.

Quote:
Usually, it's just reading up the materials, statting it out, playtesting it, then updating it as I go along. It might take a while to make the conversion work but if it is stealing, I could also be profiting from it entirely. If I'm doing the conversion and playing with it without profit, I don't see it as stealing. I see it as playing something that others might enjoy.
When I discussed my blog post (long before it went up) with my girlfriend, she went "I have a book on that!" and she plucked "Steal like an Artist" from her shelf. I don't mean "stealing" as a crime, but rather in the sense that her book meant it: You see something you like, so you take it, you use it, you remold it, remix it, and then express it again and anew. That's just how the creative process works.

Quote:
I'll check those out. Sounds like you have pretty much understood SS1-7 when I haven't read all of them just yet.
I have a very extensive library, and I've read most of it, which is something a lot of newer GURPS GMs don't have the luxury of. I hope my blog will help you, and people like you, by pointing you to works and ideas that exist that you haven't heard of.

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I'll keep the blog bookmarked.
You're very kind. Thank you.
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Old 01-06-2016, 08:07 PM   #19
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Yes, I believe you're making a mistake by converting Star Wars.
I agree completely. The two Star Wars GURPS games I've written up (one was run, the other is on the back burner for now) are radically different in scope and feel.

The first, Falling Stars was a mash-up of Dune, Fading Suns, and Star Wars. It was centered around a young Peacekeeper trained by the dying clone of an old Peacekeeper Master, his friend the genetically advanced Homo Superior from a military Great House out to prove his worth as a warrior and that he was still human with a soul, the Seer-Sister with a secret agenda, and the greatest thief the galaxy had ever not caught... the focus was on their personal quests, not on the greater galactic political backdrop (though had they taken an interest I was prepared to get them involved in the Great Game of Houses).

The second, Sengoku Jedi is a Japanese Samurai themed Star Wars setting, set during the 'Great Galactic War'. The old Shogun has lost the outer territories to open rebellion, Jedi have turned on Jedi, and a new Emperor, strategically and political powerful is rising backed by the villainous warrior monk, Darth Vader... The game's focus will be on the Code of Bushidō and how it informs one's Way in the Force, as well as how the greater war impacts the player's home system.
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Old 01-06-2016, 09:50 PM   #20
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I admit, were I to personally run Star Wars (and I have, many times), I would use the West End Games D6 system for it

The WEG D6 system is of course full of its own (varying horrible) quirks and foibles just like any other system, but its all set and ready to go for running Star Wars . . . . . and I admit, the GURPS Spaceships line is fairly traumatic seeming to me . . . . I've read it, but I certainly have no grasp at all for how to use it, while I understand the WEG D6 Star Wars space combat rules very well, and people have statted an absolute plethora of D6 Star Wars ships online . . . . so well, if I run a campaign where space combat is a thing, it isn't GURPS

I definitely agree with cannibalization from multiple sources

GURPS Primus Republic / Bestiarii campaigns are 'I Can't Believe its Not Rome' pseudo Rome-esque knockoffs (the Bestiarii one in particular being Monster Hunters inspired). Using many things from DF and MH, and also, Apicius (the cookbook!)

GURPS Loincloths and Zombies - Stealing heavily from Myth the Fallen Lords and He-Man, with stuff stolen from Fall Out, Walking Dead, and Conan as well. Using many beasties from GURPS Zombies and also DF and MH.

Tanuki City USA is more or less, I'm not sure what the primary inspiration is, Sailor Moon and Resident Evil played a role definitely, but mostly is 'steal from everything as long as it isn't realistic or believable, suspension of disbelief is strictly forbidden'
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