Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-09-2010, 07:23 PM   #1
MatthewVilter
 
MatthewVilter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Los Angeles County
Default Knee Strikes, Shock, counter Grappling, Takedowns, Arm Locks, and Two-Wapon Attacks.

I have questions, I think you people have answers! I also think you will be happy to help me. I know I will appreciate help.

1a) MA78 says if you grappled an opponent from the front your knee strikes are at an advantage. In my mind knee strikes are the classic counter to grappling. Is this supported by the rules?

1b) That page says "...you may attack his groin at no penalty!". Are you still at -1 for the technique?


2a) B419 says that shock applies "...on your next turn only.", B363 says that your turn is from one maneuver to the next maneuver and "This overlaps the turns of other characters." Does this mean that if I hit my foe on one turn and then try to break out of a grapple on the next he takes a shock penalty on the quick contest?

2b) If 2a is true, and shock only applies on your next turn, would he NOT take a penalty if I tried to break out as part of the same maneuver that I hit him with?


3) If someone is grappling me and I want to grapple him back is he at any kind of penalty to defend?


4a) After I make a takedown I know that I can kneel as part of a later attack to get in range but what about my grapple? If I plan to pin I need to keep it and you can't grapple a prone foe standing. Are you assumed to fallow him to the ground?

4b) What affect does being grappled have on the Change Posture maneuver? The box on page B371 seems indifferent.


5a) I need two hands to make an arm lock but after that do I still need two to hold on?

5b) Is the +4 to hold on on top of the +5 for using two hands?

5c) Do I count as grappling an arm I have in a lock?

5d) Is it possible to pin someone with an arm lock?


6) If I attack with an arm and a leg am I rapid striking or dual-weapon attacking?
MatthewVilter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2010, 07:47 PM   #2
Ulzgoroth
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Default Re: Knee Strikes, Shock, counter Grappling, Takedowns, Arm Locks, and Two-Wapon Attac

Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewVilter View Post
I have questions, I think you people have answers! I also think you will be happy to help me. I know I will appreciate help.

1a) MA78 says if you grappled an opponent from the front your knee strikes are at an advantage. In my mind knee strikes are the classic counter to grappling. Is this supported by the rules?
Isn't that MA76?

Anyway, no, counter-grapping isn't automatic. If you're feeling confident, though, you could AoA (double) to counter-grapple and knee-strike in the same turn and invoke the brutal Grab and Smash rules from MA118. But your opponent seems pretty well positioned to thwart your attempt to counter-grapple if they didn't AoA to grab you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewVilter View Post
1b) That page says "...you may attack his groin at no penalty!". Are you still at -1 for the technique?
Presumably that's only exempting you from the hit location penalty, yes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewVilter View Post
2a) B419 says that shock applies "...on your next turn only.", B363 says that your turn is from one maneuver to the next maneuver and "This overlaps the turns of other characters." Does this mean that if I hit my foe on one turn and then try to break out of a grapple on the next he takes a shock penalty on the quick contest?
See MA119, Pain and Breaking Free. The shock penalty goes away before your next turn, so you have to attempt to break free in the same turn as you cause it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewVilter View Post
3) If someone is grappling me and I want to grapple him back is he at any kind of penalty to defend?
Not that I can find. He can't retreat without giving up the grapple. But MA122 seems to indicate that he can still parry using any unarmed skill without having hands free, unless 'grapple' doesn't count as a grappling technique in those rules.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewVilter View Post
6) If I attack with an arm and a leg am I rapid striking or dual-weapon attacking?
I don't see why you couldn't do that as a DWA if you wanted to.
__________________
I don't know any 3e, so there is no chance that I am talking about 3e rules by accident.
Ulzgoroth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2010, 06:08 AM   #3
PK
 
PK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Dobbstown Sane Asylum
Default Re: Knee Strikes, Shock, counter Grappling, Takedowns, Arm Locks, and Two-Wapon Attac

Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewVilter View Post
1a) MA78 says if you grappled an opponent from the front your knee strikes are at an advantage. In my mind knee strikes are the classic counter to grappling. Is this supported by the rules?
Not sure what you mean. You can certainly knee-strike someone who's grappling you, but you don't get any special advantage or bonus. You are never at an advantage for being grappled!

Quote:
1b) That page says "...you may attack his groin at no penalty!". Are you still at -1 for the technique?
Yes. That should probably read "no hit location penalty," but word count was very tight for this book.

Quote:
2a) B419 says that shock applies "...on your next turn only.", B363 says that your turn is from one maneuver to the next maneuver and "This overlaps the turns of other characters." Does this mean that if I hit my foe on one turn and then try to break out of a grapple on the next he takes a shock penalty on the quick contest?
No. The intent is that the shock penalty starts immediately but only lasts until his action on that turn. It doesn't carry over afterward. If you want to take advantage of shock, you'll need to All-Out Attack or similar to hit him and break free on the same turn.

Quote:
2b) If 2a is true, and shock only applies on your next turn, would he NOT take a penalty if I tried to break out as part of the same maneuver that I hit him with?
No, shock starts the moment you hurt him, so he'd be at a penalty if you did both almost-simultaneously.

Quote:
3) If someone is grappling me and I want to grapple him back is he at any kind of penalty to defend?
Definitely not. He's in partial control of your body -- that's never a bad thing. He can better sense what you're about to do, and he can parry using a grappling skill without letting go of you! (In this case, the "parry" is actually him twisting you away so you can't get a good grapple.)

Quote:
4a) After I make a takedown I know that I can kneel as part of a later attack to get in range but what about my grapple? If I plan to pin I need to keep it and you can't grapple a prone foe standing. Are you assumed to fallow him to the ground?
Not "assumed," no, because you can always takedown a foe and relinquish your grip -- sometimes "throwing" a person to the ground is a good tactic in a fight! If you want to retain your grapple, you have to go down with him, but you can do so by kneeling or lying down.

Quote:
4b) What affect does being grappled have on the Change Posture maneuver? The box on page B371 seems indifferent.
That's because unless you're pinned, you can change posture. It's not one of the restricted maneuvers.

Quote:
5a) I need two hands to make an arm lock but after that do I still need two to hold on?
No, you can release a hand, but you lose the bonus to keep him from breaking free and he no longer suffers the -1 per repeated attempt to do so. (See The Sound of One Hand Grappling, Martial Arts, p. 116.)

Quote:
5b) Is the +4 to hold on on top of the +5 for using two hands?
Yes. Arm Locks are terrifying...

Quote:
5c) Do I count as grappling an arm I have in a lock?
Yes.

Quote:
5d) Is it possible to pin someone with an arm lock?
Yes.

Quote:
6) If I attack with an arm and a leg am I rapid striking or dual-weapon attacking?
Rapid-striking. Dual-Weapon Attack consistently refers to using "two different arms" (or "hands"). The improved penalty (relative to Rapid Strike) is due to the ease of using both arms compared to other types of attacks (e.g., using the same arm twice, using an arm and a leg).
__________________
Reverend Pee Kitty of the Order Malkavian-Dobbsian (Twitter) (LJ)

MyGURPS: My house rules and GURPS resources.

#SJGamesLive: I answered questions about GURPS After the End and more!
{Watch Video} - {Read Transcript}
PK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2010, 10:21 AM   #4
Kromm
GURPS Line Editor
 
Kromm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Montréal, Québec
Default Re: Knee Strikes, Shock, counter Grappling, Takedowns, Arm Locks, and Two-Wapon Attac

It seems that RPK got to this before I did . . .

I'll just underline that in GURPS, each fighter is responsible for his own grapple. Grapples are not egalitarian or reflexive. While the real-world situation is overwhelmingly that as soon as A grapples B, B grapples A right back, GURPS doesn't force you to do this. For all intents and purposes, if A grapples B and B doesn't grapple back, A "has position," is in control, and is assumed to have any of several holds that, while not fight-ending submissions, are definitely advantageous.

Thus, until B grapples back, A has every advantage over B. In particular, A has no penalties, and can in fact use Knee Strike more effectively and escalate his grapple into an attempt at a takedown, pin, lock, etc.; his sole difficulty is that he must relinquish his grapple to use his hands or to retreat. Whereas B is at -4 to DX; at -2 to Block or Parry, and at -1 to Dodge; can't attack or defend with a grappled limb; can't retreat or use Acrobatic Dodge; and gets no special treatment when throwing a Knee Strike or trying a grappling move.

Once B grapples back, A and B both can use Knee Strike more effectively; try to initiate a takedown, pin, lock, etc.; have -4 to DX; and suffer -2 to Block or Parry, and -1 to Dodge. Neither can attack or defend with a grappled limb, or retreat or use Acrobatic Dodge.

Consequently, it's to your advantage to be the one who grapples first. By initiating, you create a situation where your foe is at a penalty to return the favor. If he isn't very skilled, you can gain control early and dominate the fight. If he's skilled enough to absorb a -4, though, or just willing to make an All-Out Attack, then this advantage is only momentary. If he insists on not grappling back . . . well, that's his problem.
__________________
Sean "Dr. Kromm" Punch <kromm@sjgames.com>
GURPS Line Editor, Steve Jackson Games
My DreamWidth [Just GURPS News]
Kromm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2010, 11:42 AM   #5
MatthewVilter
 
MatthewVilter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Los Angeles County
Default Re: Knee Strikes, Shock, counter Grappling, Takedowns, Arm Locks, and Two-Wapon Attac

Wow two line editors! Thanks guys this clears up most of my questions! But not all...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty View Post
He can better sense what you're about to do, and he can parry using a grappling skill without letting go of you! (In this case, the "parry" is actually him twisting you away so you can't get a good grapple.)
Page 122 of MA says "The grappler has no penalties. However, he can’t parry with a limb without releasing its hold on his victim." I'm missing something here! :O

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty View Post
That's because unless you're pinned, you can change posture. It's not one of the restricted maneuvers.
This being the case, how do you pin someone? B370 says you can only pin someone who is "...on the gound..." but if he can just stand up...

One more thing: How do you pin someone with an arm lock? Again B370 says you can only pin someone you are grappling by the torso.

Thanks again guys!
MatthewVilter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2010, 11:57 AM   #6
PK
 
PK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Dobbstown Sane Asylum
Default Re: Knee Strikes, Shock, counter Grappling, Takedowns, Arm Locks, and Two-Wapon Attac

Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewVilter View Post
Page 122 of MA says "The grappler has no penalties. However, he can’t parry with a limb without releasing its hold on his victim." I'm missing something here! :O
Yes, Martial Arts. It expands on grappling rules significantly.

Quote:
This being the case, how do you pin someone? B370 says you can only pin someone who is "...on the gound..." but if he can just stand up...
Standing up takes two turns.

YOU: Grapple
HIM: Fail to break free
YOU: Takedown
HIM: Change posture to kneeling
YOU: Pin

Of course, it might be more realistic to impose some restriction on changing posture when grappled, but I'm not an expert on the real-world physics of wrestling and such. I'm just interpreting the game rules.

Quote:
One more thing: How do you pin someone with an arm lock? Again B370 says you can only pin someone you are grappling by the torso.
Hrm. I may want to let Kromm field this. I know I've seen examples of Arm Lock -> Pin, but I don't see any specific rules exemption allowing it.
__________________
Reverend Pee Kitty of the Order Malkavian-Dobbsian (Twitter) (LJ)

MyGURPS: My house rules and GURPS resources.

#SJGamesLive: I answered questions about GURPS After the End and more!
{Watch Video} - {Read Transcript}
PK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2010, 12:08 PM   #7
Ulzgoroth
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Default Re: Knee Strikes, Shock, counter Grappling, Takedowns, Arm Locks, and Two-Wapon Attac

Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewVilter View Post
Page 122 of MA says "The grappler has no penalties. However, he can’t parry with a limb without releasing its hold on his victim." I'm missing something here! :O
Look at the box below in the very same column. "Not all parries involve limbs". Specifically, any unarmed skill (it enumerates all 6) can 'parry' grappling techniques hands-free.
__________________
I don't know any 3e, so there is no chance that I am talking about 3e rules by accident.
Ulzgoroth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2010, 01:45 PM   #8
Icelander
 
Icelander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
Default Re: Knee Strikes, Shock, counter Grappling, Takedowns, Arm Locks, and Two-Wapon Attac

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty View Post
Of course, it might be more realistic to impose some restriction on changing posture when grappled, but I'm not an expert on the real-world physics of wrestling and such. I'm just interpreting the game rules.
If you're grappled, the person grappling you presumably counts as encumbrance* until you break free. And GURPS already has a rule for making Changing Posture take longer at high encumbrance levels (p. BA395).

Long story short, a ST 10 guy grappling another ST 10 guy puts him at Extra-Heavy encumbrance if he tries to move around with the grappler hanging on. So standing up while grappled would take 8 turns, 4 for each Change Posture maneuver.

*See rule for tiny combatants grappling big ones.
__________________
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Icelander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2010, 01:54 PM   #9
Icelander
 
Icelander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
Default Re: Knee Strikes, Shock, counter Grappling, Takedowns, Arm Locks, and Two-Wapon Attac

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty View Post
Yes. Arm Locks are terrifying...
Really?

Wow, I didn't know this! So two-handed Arm Locks give a +9 bonus to keep the foe from breaking free while one-handed ones give a +0?
__________________
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Icelander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2010, 08:09 AM   #10
Ultraviolet
 
Ultraviolet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Århus, Denmark
Default Re: Knee Strikes, Shock, counter Grappling, Takedowns, Arm Locks, and Two-Wapon Attac

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Really?

Wow, I didn't know this! So two-handed Arm Locks give a +9 bonus to keep the foe from breaking free while one-handed ones give a +0?
Errr. What? How? Where?

MA65 lists Arm Lock as needing two free hands to initiate. Once you have the foe in the Lock you are at +4 in Break Free contests.
It does not say whether you need both hands to hold on to the foe. However twisting the arm for damage or shock is a free action, at the technique specifically mentions thay you can make close combat attack yourself - so one could assume you only need the one hand at this point.
__________________
Playing GURPS since '90, is now fluent in 4th ed as well.
Ultraviolet is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
combat rules, kromm explanation, martial arts

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:22 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.