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Old 01-18-2018, 04:24 AM   #1
Bazial
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Ceremonial Magic and the 15+ Skill Requirement

Stuff like Astrological Modifiers and all good stuff is cool, and I really want to use it in an upcoming campaign. However, I've stumbled over a small issue. The rules for Ceremonial Magic states that the main caster needs to know the spell at 15+ skill. Going with the suggestion in Thaumatology that invoking modifiers requires a Ceremonial casting, the makes any spells that are penalized because of defaults or other factors basically impossible to cast as Ceremonial ones. Would it be reasonable to extend the Knowledge is Power rule (Thaum p. 83) to Ceremonial Castings as well, i.e. as long as the caster can, through modifiers, reach 15+ in effective skill level, he can cast it ceremonially?
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Old 01-18-2018, 04:33 AM   #2
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: Ceremonial Magic and the 15+ Skill Requirement

It depends on the setting. Ceremonial magic is supposed to be limiting because it is so powerful. If you have such a change, low mana becomes less of an issue for ceremonial magic because you can just exchange energy for skill or use other modifiers to reach 15+.
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Old 01-18-2018, 10:22 AM   #3
Fred Brackin
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Default Re: Ceremonial Magic and the 15+ Skill Requirement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bazial View Post
Stuff like Astrological Modifiers and all good stuff is cool, and I really want to use it in an upcoming campaign. However, I've stumbled over a small issue. The rules for Ceremonial Magic states that the main caster needs to know the spell at 15+ skill. Going with the suggestion in Thaumatology that invoking modifiers requires a Ceremonial casting, the makes any spells that are penalized because of defaults or other factors basically impossible to cast as Ceremonial ones.
That's _basic_ Skill 15+. Not adjusted chance to cast.
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Old 01-18-2018, 12:48 PM   #4
Bazial
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: Ceremonial Magic and the 15+ Skill Requirement

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
That's _basic_ Skill 15+. Not adjusted chance to cast.
I realize that is true when talking about low mana and other such situational modifiers. But does this also hold true when a spell takes prerequisite count/default penalty? Say, if using Ritual Magic, and a character has College of Fire-18 and wants to cast Breathe Figure. It defaults to College of Fire minus 8, leaving the skill at 10. The wording of Ceremonial Magic says that one has to "know a spell at 15+" (emphasis mine). Thaumatology p. 74 under the Ceremonial Magic is uncharacteristically difficult to parse in this respect, but seems to imply that after prerequisite count penalties, the spell must still be at 15+.
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Old 01-18-2018, 01:24 PM   #5
sir_pudding
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Default Re: Ceremonial Magic and the 15+ Skill Requirement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bazial View Post
I realize that is true when talking about low mana and other such situational modifiers. But does this also hold true when a spell takes prerequisite count/default penalty? Say, if using Ritual Magic, and a character has College of Fire-18 and wants to cast Breathe Figure. It defaults to College of Fire minus 8, leaving the skill at 10. The wording of Ceremonial Magic says that one has to "know a spell at 15+" (emphasis mine). Thaumatology p. 74 under the Ceremonial Magic is uncharacteristically difficult to parse in this respect, but seems to imply that after prerequisite count penalties, the spell must still be at 15+.
I think as a part of a magic system having the the limit based on College skill is reasonable. Since the college represents the entire body of knowledge for rituals in that college, being able to use Fire College ceremonial magic at skill 15+ fits that model better than the other way.
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Old 01-18-2018, 08:36 PM   #6
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: Ceremonial Magic and the 15+ Skill Requirement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bazial View Post
Say, if using Ritual Magic, and a character has College of Fire-18 and wants to cast Breathe Figure. It defaults to College of Fire minus 8, leaving the skill at 10. The wording of Ceremonial Magic says that one has to "know a spell at 15+" (emphasis mine). Thaumatology p. 74 under the Ceremonial Magic is uncharacteristically difficult to parse in this respect, but seems to imply that after prerequisite count penalties, the spell must still be at 15+.
I had not considered Ritual Magic due to my....let's call it extremely negative opinion of that system but after reviewing p.74 I would say that the level-15 in question is the default with _non_ situational modifiers. Generally that would be the default from College minus the prerequisite count.

So it would be a "no" even on Breathe Fire. "Breathe Figure" sounds like something from Illusion and Creation. :)

Breathe Fire would be a very odd choice for Ceremonial Casting anyway. Generally at least half the College of Fire isn't a strong choice for Ceremonial Casting.
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Old 01-19-2018, 01:43 AM   #7
Bazial
 
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Default Re: Ceremonial Magic and the 15+ Skill Requirement

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
I think as a part of a magic system having the the limit based on College skill is reasonable. Since the college represents the entire body of knowledge for rituals in that college, being able to use Fire College ceremonial magic at skill 15+ fits that model better than the other way.
I was thinking something along those same lines, but as Fred pointed out, it does seem incongruent with the rules, even if it's reasonable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
I had not considered Ritual Magic due to my....let's call it extremely negative opinion of that system but after reviewing p.74 I would say that the level-15 in question is the default with _non_ situational modifiers. Generally that would be the default from College minus the prerequisite count.

So it would be a "no" even on Breathe Fire. "Breathe Figure" sounds like something from Illusion and Creation. :)

Breathe Fire would be a very odd choice for Ceremonial Casting anyway. Generally at least half the College of Fire isn't a strong choice for Ceremonial Casting.
Hah, just realized I had written "Breathe Figure", not "Breathe Fire". That's staying in! And yeah, the choice of college and spells was purely random.

Overall, I think the easiest thing is just to go with the normal rules then. I want much of the point of the magical modifiers and bonus to be relevant for casting spells one knows at a low level. Limiting it to Ceremonial Magic kinda works against the whole point in this case.
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