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Old 04-06-2017, 12:57 PM   #21
jason taylor
 
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Default Re: International Relations and Implications of US Supersoldier Experiments in 2017

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
In connection with our Supers/Technothriller campaign of Project Jade Serenity, I've been considering what the intelligence services, military establishments and political leadership of other nations would think if they got wind of the experiments that the US Army carried out until the year 2000* in our backstory.

The experiments themselves were relatively tame. I don't expect any nation states will flip out at the news that others are experimenting with nootropic drugs, designer steroids or anything of that nature. And when the project was abandoned, it had not produced any dramatic repeatable successes.

On the other hand, in the era in which our play is set, the current time of 2017*, the former test subjects exhibit enhanced performance, major side-effects and even traits that the experiment was never meant to affect. In layman's terms, some of them have superpowers.

This has been developing over time, with the first indicators of enhanced performance probably becoming evident to the former test subjects themselves around 2005-2007 and with several isolated incidents of individudals exhibiting full-blown superpowers around 2011-2012.

Once the situation became evident to the US government, at least one task force had been formed to get a handle on the issue and respond appropriately. This is Onyx Rain, the handlers, watchers and jailers of our PCs in the game. They want to contact all former test subjects, study them and place them under permanent observation until a decision is made about what to do with them.

The setting is pretty much unchanged from our world to all appearances. The results of Project Jade Serenity are still highly classified and so far, nothing has leaked to the public, but that could change rapidly in play.

What I'm wondering about is who else might have pieced together information on Project Jade Serenity?

If one secret government experiment had the effects of giving people superpowers, could others have done the same?

What nation states, aside from China and Russia, might be interested enough in the results of Project Jade Serenity to run risky intelligence operations in the Americas?

The potential upside would be getting their hands on miracle drugs that not only enhance the effects of military training, but could actually give recruits superhuman abilities. The downside would be an international incident and damaging US relations.

If it got out that many, perhaps even most, of the former Project Jade Serenity test subjects were fleeing from the US and were currently in Mexico, what nation states might be intersted in offering them asylum in return for information?

*Assuming they ever stopped, but as far as we are aware, there haven't been experiments since then. This could simply mean that whoever was placed in charge of continuing them was better at security than his predecessors.
**It was current time when we started. Now we're about two months ahead of the in-game date.
Internationally it sounds more like any other weapon. The more interesting result is internal. A nation's constitution is effected by the power structure and supesoldiers might make for a rearistocrization of a sort we have not seen since The Rifle Made All Men Tall.

In fact the government would be extremely foolish to do such a thing and it is better off continuing to trust in war machines manned by citizen-soldiers who are no stronger then anyone else in civil life where their machines are not around.
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Old 04-06-2017, 01:31 PM   #22
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Default Re: International Relations and Implications of US Supersoldier Experiments in 2017

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Internationally it sounds more like any other weapon.
Well, it's different in that it can produce smarter, more adaptable and better motivated soldiers. And officers.

A professional army will usually have battlefield leaders with skill 12-15 in important skills like Leadership and Tactics. The best are probably skill 16-18. Occasionally, a great leader who is good enough to change history might be more skilled, with 19-22.

The effects of having an army where the leaders are all skill 14-18, the really good ones are skill 19-22 and perhaps several of the top leaders are skill 23+ would be pretty impressive.

Not to mention the potential force multiplier of maybe having Special Forces, mumbering in the thousands, where every single operator has skill 18+ in all relevant skills and can remain sharp, fit and at Olympic levels of physical development into his fifties and sixties.

All sorts of strategic missions that are considered impossible with regular people might become possible if the operators were all operating at the edge of human competence and even had greater than human abilities in some things.

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The more interesting result is internal. A nation's constitution is effected by the power structure and supesoldiers might make for a rearistocrization of a sort we have not seen since The Rifle Made All Men Tall.
They might indeed. A result at least one former test subject would probably be in favour of. And the reason the people in charge of the current power structure are terrified of the subjects of Project Jade Serenity. Scared enough to break laws they are supposed to enforce and violate every right they have merely because of what they could do, not what they have done.

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In fact the government would be extremely foolish to do such a thing and it is better off continuing to trust in war machines manned by citizen-soldiers who are no stronger then anyone else in civil life where their machines are not around.
'The government' never actually decided to create people with superhuman abilities. Individual scientists with government funding experimented with various things, because that's what scientists do. Research programs into nootropic drugs and enhanced steroids that could improve the results of training programs for elite troops ended up having the side effect of them developing these powers many years later. Without anyone knowing how or why.

And once it has happened once, it's pretty hard to decide not to research it further. What if someone else gains the capacity?
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Old 04-06-2017, 01:54 PM   #23
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Default Re: International Relations and Implications of US Supersoldier Experiments in 2017

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Well, it's different in that it can produce smarter, more adaptable and better motivated soldiers. And officers.
Which would presumably improve battlefield performance. But as every nation expects us to try to do so it is not clear what has changed.

The main difference is that there can be no arms control treaties when destroying weapons means executing people. On the other hand, in principle that just takes us back to Westphalian(and many other similar peace conferences) days when the main problem in ending a war was downsizing.

How effective would supersoldiers actually be? They would not be expendable therefore could not be committed to battle, and they can only be in one place at a time. They can conduct dramatic strikes, but can they take and hold ground any better then any other kind of soldier? Their brains, adaptablity, etc is limited when so much of war is random.
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Old 04-06-2017, 02:44 PM   #24
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Default Re: International Relations and Implications of US Supersoldier Experiments in 2017

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Which would presumably improve battlefield performance. But as every nation expects us to try to do so it is not clear what has changed.
The fact that the officers and senior NCOs who went through Project Jade Serenity have Leadership and Tactics at 18+. Col. Ortiz probably has Leadership, Strategy and Tactics in the high 20s.

No method known to man in our history has ever been able to produce Caesars, Napoleons and Alexanders by order, with a staff, junior officers and NCOs who are all world-class experts.

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The main difference is that there can be no arms control treaties when destroying weapons means executing people. On the other hand, in principle that just takes us back to Westphalian(and many other similar peace conferences) days when the main problem in ending a war was downsizing.
When people are potentially WMDs, plenty of people will argue for execution, anyway. Especially as the government currently does not know how these people developed the powers. They received a great number of different drugs and the records about it are falsified. And in any case, the eventual results are not what the alleged goals of the research was about. And people who weren't part of Project Jade Serenity have shown evidence of changes. The condition might be communicable or inheritable.

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How effective would supersoldiers actually be? They would not be expendable therefore could not be committed to battle, and they can only be in one place at a time. They can conduct dramatic strikes, but can they take and hold ground any better then any other kind of soldier? Their brains, adaptablity, etc is limited when so much of war is random.
They would be as 'expendable' as other special operations personnel. Scientifically, it ought to be possible to isolate what specific aspects of Project Jade Serenity had these effects. Any polity who has evidence about this is probably considering the possibilities of incorporating such drugs into MOS specific training for all qualified recruits.

As for how effective, well, as effective as GURPS characters with Attributes 13-16 instead of 11-13, with the addition of all kinds of Talents and Advantages. There are those with ST 25+, DX up to 18 and extreme senses, but these wouldn't have nearly the impact of people like Dr. Michael Anderson (PC), who has IQ 17, or generals with IQ 14+ and Born Tactician 4, not to mention the mental drive and adaptability to improve their skills constantly all their lives.
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Old 04-06-2017, 03:04 PM   #25
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Default Re: International Relations and Implications of US Supersoldier Experiments in 2017

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
In connection with our Supers/Technothriller campaign of Project Jade Serenity, I've been considering what the intelligence services, military establishments and political leadership of other nations would think if they got wind of the experiments that the US Army carried out until the year 2000* in our backstory.

The experiments themselves were relatively tame. I don't expect any nation states will flip out at the news that others are experimenting with nootropic drugs, designer steroids or anything of that nature. And when the project was abandoned, it had not produced any dramatic repeatable successes.

On the other hand, in the era in which our play is set, the current time of 2017*, the former test subjects exhibit enhanced performance, major side-effects and even traits that the experiment was never meant to affect. In layman's terms, some of them have superpowers.

This has been developing over time, with the first indicators of enhanced performance probably becoming evident to the former test subjects themselves around 2005-2007 and with several isolated incidents of individudals exhibiting full-blown superpowers around 2011-2012.

Once the situation became evident to the US government, at least one task force had been formed to get a handle on the issue and respond appropriately. This is Onyx Rain, the handlers, watchers and jailers of our PCs in the game. They want to contact all former test subjects, study them and place them under permanent observation until a decision is made about what to do with them.

The setting is pretty much unchanged from our world to all appearances. The results of Project Jade Serenity are still highly classified and so far, nothing has leaked to the public, but that could change rapidly in play.

What I'm wondering about is who else might have pieced together information on Project Jade Serenity?

If one secret government experiment had the effects of giving people superpowers, could others have done the same?

What nation states, aside from China and Russia, might be interested enough in the results of Project Jade Serenity to run risky intelligence operations in the Americas?

The potential upside would be getting their hands on miracle drugs that not only enhance the effects of military training, but could actually give recruits superhuman abilities. The downside would be an international incident and damaging US relations.

If it got out that many, perhaps even most, of the former Project Jade Serenity test subjects were fleeing from the US and were currently in Mexico, what nation states might be intersted in offering them asylum in return for information?

*Assuming they ever stopped, but as far as we are aware, there haven't been experiments since then. This could simply mean that whoever was placed in charge of continuing them was better at security than his predecessors.
**It was current time when we started. Now we're about two months ahead of the in-game date.
Via offensive hacking:
Iran, North Korea, South Korea, Assortec Chinese hacker groups, assorted Russian mafia/mob hacker groups, assorted domestic/international hacker groups including anonymous, various malware producers (at least three times in the time period you are identifying the DIRECTOR of the FBI had either his home computer and/or work computer compromised by malware).

Via medical equipment purchases:
Canada, UK, France, Germany, Japan,

Via 4 eyes intelligence sharing (the US might end up sharing if they want access to what other peoples projects are doing; of particular interest might be intense activity during the 70's that the canadian's did attempting to train remote viewers, and the australian project attempting to weaponize the aborriginal dreamtime):
Canada, UK, Aus

Via the research community:
Canada, UK, Germany, France

Last edited by starslayer; 04-06-2017 at 03:22 PM.
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Old 04-06-2017, 05:29 PM   #26
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Default Re: International Relations and Implications of US Supersoldier Experiments in 2017

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... the australian project attempting to weaponize the aborriginal dreamtime
I really want to hear more about how that was supposed to work.

EDIT: Was it bone pointing? I so want there to have been a government spec ops bone pointing program.
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Old 04-06-2017, 07:11 PM   #27
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Default Re: International Relations and Implications of US Supersoldier Experiments in 2017

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Well, it's different in that it can produce smarter, more adaptable and better motivated soldiers. And officers.
While it has that potential (if they can isolate Chase Taylor's cocktail) what it sounds to me like is a program to create super intelligence assets.


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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
When people are potentially WMDs...
No one so far has shown the capacity to be a WMD.


A Weapon of Mass Groping, maybe.


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And people who weren't part of Project Jade Serenity have shown evidence of changes. The condition might be communicable or inheritable.
It's also possible it has nothing to do with Jade Serenity, or has external factors outside of Jade Serenity.
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Old 04-06-2017, 07:39 PM   #28
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Default Re: International Relations and Implications of US Supersoldier Experiments in 2017

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While it has that potential (if they can isolate Chase Taylor's cocktail) what it sounds to me like is a program to create super intelligence assets.
That too. Basically, motivated, capable people become a lot more capable at their areas of expertise.

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No one so far has shown the capacity to be a WMD.
Remember the rats?

What do you think will happen if the gene for super-intelligent rats that work in perfect unison breeds true? How would humanity fare against rats that gather intelligence, plan and then act as one?

Do you know how many rats there are in the world? And how few generations it would take for the super-intelligent rats to displace them?

And keep in mind that Onyx Rain seems to assume that former test subjects may be able to infect others somehow. There may be a reason for that belief or it may just be paranoia. On the other hand, us players and any readers know that the condition can be inherited, which Onyx Rain may or may not suspect. Depending on how that works, the new species could breed humanity out within a fairly short time.

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A Weapon of Mass Groping, maybe.
Well, Dr. Anderson has powers that might allow him to obtain any secret that a person who sleeps has. Such as nuclear launch codes. He could also convince people of... well, anything, in their sleep. We've seen some of it in play and we might get to test those limits.

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It's also possible it has nothing to do with Jade Serenity, or has external factors outside of Jade Serenity.
Well, there may be other factors in play, but it's highly unlikely that they have nothing to do woth Project Jade Serenity. As far as Onyx Rain knows, all test subjects in Jade Serenity who survive to the modern day have exhibited extraordinary abilities, severe psychological trauma or both.

That's enough correlation to make the lack of any connection astronomically unlikely.
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Old 04-07-2017, 07:48 AM   #29
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Default Re: International Relations and Implications of US Supersoldier Experiments in 2017

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Via offensive hacking:
Iran, North Korea, South Korea, Assortec Chinese hacker groups, assorted Russian mafia/mob hacker groups, assorted domestic/international hacker groups including anonymous, various malware producers (at least three times in the time period you are identifying the DIRECTOR of the FBI had either his home computer and/or work computer compromised by malware).
Hacking network-connected computers wouldn't yield anything truly useful.

It might serve to make foreign intelligence agencies curious, but frankly, I'd guess that most who saw emails or other secure communcations about supersoldiers and drug trials would either assume that they'd been detected by someone with a sense of humour or that they'd stumbled across a pet project by a senior bureaucrat with crazy pseudoscientific beliefs, like the Trojan Warrior Project or the Stargate Project.

Any actual evidence is probably not kept on networked computers. For one thing, it's evidence against a lot of senior officers in the US Army about falsification of records for Project Jade Serenity. They are probably trying to keep it from their own government, let alone others. Other factions of the conspiracy seem to be holding on to any potential evidence, possibly for leverage. No one is actually filing scientific data about test subjects of Project Jade Serenity into government computers, where all sorts of people might take official note of it.

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Via medical equipment purchases:
Canada, UK, France, Germany, Japan,
I don't think that anything worth selling came from Project Jade Serenity. The drug experiments were discontinued as a failure in the year 2000 and while the former subjects have developed powers many years later, no one knows exactly what about the many experimental drugs they took had those effects.

Even as far as the scientists who took part knew, it was an embarrassing professional failure which damaged their careers, not something which yielded actual marketable results.

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Via 4 eyes intelligence sharing (the US might end up sharing if they want access to what other peoples projects are doing; of particular interest might be intense activity during the 70's that the canadian's did attempting to train remote viewers, and the australian project attempting to weaponize the aborriginal dreamtime):
Canada, UK, Aus

Via the research community:
Canada, UK, Germany, France
Theoretically possible, but none of these polities are likely to value their security partnership with the US lightly enough to consider providing asylum to fleeing test subjects who will be branded deserters and traitors.
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Old 04-07-2017, 09:00 AM   #30
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Default Re: International Relations and Implications of US Supersoldier Experiments in 2017

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What I'm wondering about is who else might have pieced together information on Project Jade Serenity?
I actually think you have a perfectly plausible vector to include anybody you like. During the period in which nobody thought there were any results, any of the former subjects could have openly and legally immigrated to any country in the world, or started displaying weird effects and powers and gone to any medical or scientific organization for help.

For that matter in the absence of any results, there would have been no reason to run an illegal cover-up, so there ought to be at least some sort of notation in their medical files they could have requested to have sent to any physician or insurance company on the planet too.
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