Follow Up-- point confusion

[Darth Cloaked Guy]

Hello. I am trying to stat out the bite attack of a komodo dragon (yes as a PC advantage). I was going to apply a cyclic toxic damage as a follow up to a bite attack.

According to the rules regarding Follow-Up:

Originally Posted by Follow-Up B105

If the carrier attack is a natural weapon, such as Claws or Teeth, Follow-Up is a +0% enhancement.

This sounds simple enough, until you read a little bit farther down.

Originally Posted by Follow-Up B105

If the carrier attack is an Innate Attack, the cost of Follow-Up depends on the modifiers on the carrier attack. The cost of Follow-Up equals the sum of the costs of whichever of the following modifiers apply to the carrier attack: Always On, Aura...Limited Use, Malediction, Melee Attack...

Which looking at the rules for Melee Attack comes to...

Originally Posted by Melee Attack B112

Reach Modifier
C -30%
1 or 2 -25%
C, 1, or 1, 2, or 2, 3 -20%
1-4 (like a whip) -15%
If your attack cannot parry, it is
worth an extra -5%.

A grand total of -35% for a Follow-Up linked to a C-range melee innate attack which cannot parry, and -0% for a Follow-Up linked to a bite attack, which is C-range, melee, and cannot parry. Or shouldn't be able to parry if it can.

I'm guessing I did something wrong here. But if I did not, and that was as it was intended, then I would like to ask this: What's the difference between a C-range melee Innate Attack and the Sharp Teeth advantage, what are the benefits to having Sharp Teeth over Innate Attack that allow for follow-ups to Sharp Teeth to have +35% over follow-ups to a Innate Attack that seems to be functionally identical? Especially considering using one's Teeth has inherent risks Innate Attack lacks: Danger from defensive abilities, such as spikiness, acid coating, or poisonous blood.

Or would it be reasonable to allow my PC in question to take -35% for the follow-up attack, given the inherent challenges in bite attacks?

Thank you in advance.

[roguebfl]

The difference is sharpe teeth and claws is a minimal bonus to to damage and is limited to close to thrust damage, Where as an Innate attack with Melee can do signiftly more damage thust damage. Would be my guest

[Darth Cloaked Guy]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

The difference is sharpe teeth and claws is a minimal bonus to to damage and is limited to close to thrust damage, Where as an Innate attack with Melee can do signiftly more damage thust damage. Would be my guest

I do not see how that affects the follow-up, that sounds more like info relevant to the point cost of the attack itself.

[ErhnamDJ]

Originally Posted by Darth Cloaked Guy

What's the difference between a C-range melee Innate Attack and the Sharp Teeth advantage, what are the benefits to having Sharp Teeth over Innate Attack that allow for follow-ups to Sharp Teeth to have +35% over follow-ups to a Innate Attack that seems to be functionally identical?

One difference would be that a larger creature has more reach on their attacks. A SM 5 dragon with Sharp Teeth can bite things pretty far away. But it is the same price as for a creature with Sharp Teeth and Reach C. So I'd say there's something funny going on there, where it only takes into account the reach of the weapon if you're buying it with Innate Attack.

[Gnomasz]

Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ

One difference would be that a larger creature has more reach on their attacks.

Good point but... I see no reason not to increase Reach of Innate Attacks according to SM. Neither modifier description nor Size Modifier and Reach table exclude it from the ruling. So I'd say that a SM 2 giant with Melee C Innate Attack would use it at Reach C,1.

So, uhm... I see no reason for the distinction in Follow-Up pricing. Natural attacks look less suspicious than IA?

[Nosforontu]

Originally Posted by Gnomasz

So, uhm... I see no reason for the distinction in Follow-Up pricing. Natural attacks look less suspicious than IA?

Probably because the rule hack for pretending your thrust damage from strength is a virtual innate attack and then figuring modifiers from that pretend value had not yet been developed yet in the system.

[Gnomasz]

Originally Posted by Nosforontu

Probably because the rule hack for pretending your thrust damage from strength is a virtual innate attack and then figuring modifiers from that pretend value had not yet been developed yet in the system.

Oh, and if one wants his IA to deal ST-based damage, he must pay at least +65%. And I can see why a Follow-Up on this would be more expensive.

So I'd say that Follow-Up is more expensive on natural attack than on usual melee IA because of ST-based damage.
It's more expensive on ST-based IA than on a natural weapon because it has far better "delivery" potential with damage increased in two ways (ST and IA levels) and because it's a lot safer to use, avoiding unarmed combat rules.

[Darth Cloaked Guy]

Why should any of this affect the pricing of the follow-up attack?

I'm not buying that it's due to extra damage from ST because you can just as easily buy up the point value of your Innate Attack to far higher than a bite could ever do, without changing the cost of the follow-up attack.

Additionally, an innate attack does not put your face in danger of being parried with a sword. Or burned by acid skin. Or any of the awful things that might happen to you from biting a poisonous creature, a diseased plague monster, or a mummy with a cursed touch. Or just about anything that has been in a sewer.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Darth Cloaked Guy

What's the difference between a C-range melee Innate Attack and the Sharp Teeth advantage, what are the benefits to having Sharp Teeth over Innate Attack that allow for follow-ups to Sharp Teeth to have +35% over follow-ups to a Innate Attack that seems to be functionally identical?

Wouldn't you need ST-Based to make them equivalent? That's another +100% or +30% right there.

[Darth Cloaked Guy]

ST-based, if I am not mistaken, only affects the damage of the carrier attack. So would simply buying more dice in damage, but that doesn't have an effect on pricing of the follow up, though.