Everyone get +4 for free against berserkers

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

...Except that you can't do that in GURPS. There is no "defense 'turn'" and you can't retroactively declare AoD.

Right, there is no defense "turn", but the only time you'd be declaring an AoD would be during your Defense, having to declare it previously during your attack is a simplistic use of the rules.

Since being psychic is unplayable and having to declare AoD before you attack would make AoD worthless, I just run it in a common sense manner and allow characters to AoD appropriately.

I guess that means I'm not running a literal interpretation of the RAW, but it's clearly the spirit and intent of the rules, so I'm good with my interpretation.

Call it an optional approach if you will, but without that type of optional approach why would anyone ever take AoD?

[ErhnamDJ]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

Call it an optional approach if you will, but without that type of optional approach why would anyone ever take AoD?

Because they only have so many arrows, and the way GURPS models blocking arrows with your shield is... dodging.

Also, it's pretty good against unarmed foes where you can parry their hands off, or against wizards who have spent multiple turns charging a missile spell that you need to dodge.

I commonly see characters take AoD. Especially melee characters who are standing in front of spellcasters or archers.

It's definitely not a great option, though, that's for sure. I think the bonuses are probably a little low. I might increase the bonus to +3.

I think it's only a symptom of the overall problem with achieving some semblance of simultaneity. In GURPS, if you can make it to your turn, you can do an entire second's worth of actions and your foe isn't going to be able to do anything about it until it's over. Also, characters can do much, much more than a single second's worth of actions. You can easily step back a yard, make two attacks, do three parries (for full damage against unarmed attacks!), block, step back another yard, and dodge five different attacks. All in the span of a single second. And it's very common to see characters in gritty realistic games doing that much stuff in a single second. I often feel like the characters are speedsters even when they're only seventy-five point investigators.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

No, you declare All Out Defense when you see the need while being attacked, during your defense "turn", having to declare it first during your previous attack "turn" would mean you're psychic.

Hence the reason no-one actually uses all-out defense; like all-out attack, the situations in which it is useful are extremely limited.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

Right, there is no defense "turn", but the only time you'd be declaring an AoD would be during your Defense, having to declare it previously during your attack is a simplistic use of the rules.

Since being psychic is unplayable and having to declare AoD before you attack would make AoD worthless, I just run it in a common sense manner and allow characters to AoD appropriately.

I guess that means I'm not running a literal interpretation of the RAW, but it's clearly the spirit and intent of the rules, so I'm good with my interpretation.

Call it an optional approach if you will, but without that type of optional approach why would anyone ever take AoD?

I'm pretty sure this is actually an enormous deviation from the text and intent of the rules. Hopefully those who can speak authoritatively will...

AoD under the actual rules is, like other All Out options, a specialized choice. It's very useful on turns where your primary concern is defending yourself.

Examples include: After you've taken a bad shock penalty or other impairing condition and thus can't throw an effective attack this turn, but expect to be attacked. When your opponent is ready to lay a major blow on you and you want more than anything else to not be hit with it (say, they just Readied a large double-dagger weapon). When you're planning to walk into an enemy Wait. When you simply want to stall your adversary. When you're hoping your enemy will let you parry their attack to set up a disarm/bind/throw. All Out Defense (Dodge) also has pretty good mobility.

The Last Gasp makes it even more useful because it gives you some free AP for defenses. So you can use it after you're too winded to continue the flurry but your enemy is still pressing...or you can use it in mid-flurry to accumulate an AP advantage.

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

The really experience types won't be overmatched, they just attack into the flurry.

So what's the suggested mechanic, here? I'm seeing "You'll be forced to defend, unless you are good enough to not be forced." Okay, how?

[roguebfl]

Given even in a school yard scrap people who aren't very skilled can still side slip an All out attack then attack on the exposed flank. I honest can see All out attack berserks force you to do anything at all.

if it all out attack double you see cause thins, why that and not Rapid strike?

[Langy]

Originally Posted by Kromm

No, it was thought out at great length. In fact, it was the subject of two hours of phone calls and a lot of playtesting. It's fine as it is. People might not like the fact that going fully on the offensive means you either kill your enemy or he kills you – and boy, he had better not have pals – but that's death for you. The real issue here is with Berserk, not All-Out Attack, and whether it's fair to get +4 all the time. I tend to agree that it isn't . . . personally, I think that switching Berserk to Committed Attack would be the fairest tweak.

I have to say, I like this idea a lot. It makes Berserkers very much more interesting and neatly eliminates this little issue.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Peter V. Dell'Orto

So what's the suggested mechanic, here? I'm seeing "You'll be forced to defend, unless you are good enough to not be forced." Okay, how?

By using the common sense AoD option of declaring AoD as you get overwhelmed, which is pretty realistic.

If you're forced to defend because you're not good enough, then you AoD in reaction to the AoA, if you're good enough and/or the attacker is bad enough, you simply take your normal defense, side-step, parry, etc., and attack into the vulnerable AoA.

I've been running this option for years and it makes both AoA and AoD more realistic choices.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

By using the common sense AoD option of declaring AoD as you get overwhelmed, which is pretty realistic.

If you're forced to defend because you're not good enough, then you AoD in reaction to the AoA, if you're good enough and/or the attacker is bad enough, you simply take your normal defense, side-step, parry, etc., and attack into the vulnerable AoA.

I've been running this option for years and it makes both AoA and AoD more realistic choices.

What does it even mean to 'declare AoD when you get overwhelmed'? What does that do?

Your 'common sense option' is not compatible with the basic skeleton of the GURPS turn sequence so it might be good to say what its rules are...

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

What does it even mean to 'declare AoD when you get overwhelmed'? What does that do?

It does what it says, as you get hit by by an overwhelming attack, in the same way you'd use Extra Effort in Combat (B.357) for a Feverish Defense, you also, or instead, declare AoD.

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Your 'common sense option' is not compatible with the basic skeleton of the GURPS turn sequence so it might be good to say what its rules are...

GURPS turn sequence is a mess as written, so common sense has to be applied in order for it to work.