Realm Magic versus Ritual Path Magic [Thaumotology]

[AlexanderHowl]

Realm Magic and Ritual Path Magic both offer extremely flexible magical systems, but which of them is better? For the sake of this comparison, assume that Realm Magic consists of 9 Realms, each with an associated Path Skill, each with three levels while Ritual Path Magic consists of a Core Skill with 9 Paths. We will further assume that Magery (Realm) and Magery (Ritual Path) both increases maximum skill to (12 + Magery), increases maximum conditional spells to (Thaumotology + Magery) and gives an ER equal to (Magery × 3).

When we look at Realm Magic, the first aspect is the CP cost, 20 CP/level, which is rather high. Unlike Ritual Path Magic though, Realm Magic can use FP efficiently, meaning that magicians do not need to make gathering rolls. The parameters also tend to be more generous, though damage ends up costing a lot of FP.

When we look at Ritual Path Magic, the first aspect is the requirement for a Core Skill, which is a VH skill, and Ritual Adept, which is 40 CP. The primary disadvantage is the requirement for gathering rolls, though the ability to gather energy allows Ritual Path to outperform Realm after a couple of spells. While most of the parameters lose out to Realm Magic, damage is much better for Ritual Path.

So, which system do you like better? Why do you like your chosen system? What aspects of your chosen system would you want to change?

[Shostak]

One attraction of RPM is that it invites enriching rituals with various ingredients or timing them to zodiacal events, etc. It feels more like the rituals one might encounter in the real world than just superpowers going "Zap!" I think it works best with players who really want to learn to utilize the potential of trappings, but that is more learning than just knowing the parameters of various Realm levels. You can also easily keep a rein on things with RPM by declaring at the outset that Greater Effects are not possible for PCs.

[dataweaver]

I personally prefer the Symbol, Noun-Verb, and Realm systems from Thaumatology, albeit heavily modified. Bear in mind, though, that that's what RPM is: a heavily modified variant of the systems found in chapters 5 and 6 of Thaumatology. That said, it's one variant; there are other possibilities.

The key things that RPM does that are different from Realm Magic:

1. No Realms. Duh. With RPM, you get access to all possible Effects of a given Path right out of the gate, at no additional point cost. You do have to pay energy to use them; but you have to do that for Realm Magic, too — and the energy costs aren't exactly an improvement: Sense costs as much energy as a level 1 Realm Effect; Strengthen falls between levels 1 and 2 cost-wise; Restore costs the same as a level 2 Realm Effect; Control and Destroy fall between levels 2 and 3; Create costs as much as a level 3 Realm Effect; and Transform costs as much as a level 4 Realm Effect. Where Realm Magic is cheaper is that it has a much lower price for combining Effects: a flat +1 Energy per Effect after the first, instead of adding the full costs of multiple Effects together. That, and the Greater Effects Multiplier, which is based on dividing Effects into Lesser and Greater subsets and greatly inflating energy costs if any Greater Effects are involved. I wouldn't mind backporting the Lesser/Greater divide to Realm Magic; but I'd want to implement it differently.

RPM's Spell Modifiers are a refined version of Syntactic Magic's Parameters, and I wouldn't mind “backporting” a lot of the innovations to Syntactic Magic. Not all of them, mind you: RPM operates on the basis that all Spell Modifiers are Energy-based; at the very least, I'd want variants available that work with skill penalties or margins of success instead.

The core difference between Realm Magic and RPM is that Realm Magic uses what amounts to a slight variation of the standard rules for casting magic found in Basic Set and GURPS Magic, while RPM uses the Energy Accumulation model found in the Paths and Books chapter in Thaumatology. The latter isn't exactly my favorite system; and while I'm more fond of the Effect-Shaping model, I have some issues with it, too. I generally prefer the way Syntactic Magic casting is handled in Thaumatology over either the method used in RPM or the method used in Incantation Magic (an RPM variant that uses skill penalties and Effect Shaping instead of energy costs and Energy Accumulation).

Speaking of Incantation Magic: that's another system that I like in principle but have major reservations about in practice. In many ways, it's my favorite — after I've gutted it and rebuilt its internals more to my liking.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

So, which system do you like better? Why do you like your chosen system? What aspects of your chosen system would you want to change?

I use both for very different things in very different circumstances.

Ritual Path Magic is a well known system that gives reasonable results, emulates a certain rather common type of magic very well, and is the expected magic system for a setting I can always find players for. I find it works well for games where I don't know the players going in, or that will be over quickly, or in a format where learning new systems is difficult, such as play by post.

Realm Magic is an extremely flexible system for building magic systems that lets you assign point values to custom abilities without getting into the nitty-gritty of the powers system. Realm magic is good at providing flexible abilities that are still firmly limited in scope. When I have a complex magic system I wish to model, especially one with its own set of balancing costs, I often reach for Realm magic. Realm magic is also nice when I want to build a mage (Especially a powerful one) on a budget with firm limitations but don't want to spend hours figuring out their spells or power builds. So I either use it when I'm deep in setting-building or when I'm spit-balling high-powered characters.

My biggest problem with realm magic is that its presented as an afterthought to an afterthought in thaumatology. Its in the middle of a chapter, and the pieces needed to use it are scattered through the book. That makes it hard to learn and harder to show to others.

I'm not ecstatic about the FP costs for realm magic: they're a bit clunky, hard to find, and I usually don't use them, either using a different mystic currency or using FP costs from the standard spell system.

RPM's growth curve is quite clunky. Its power level grows with a squared exponent, which means that 500 point RPM mages can quickly get out of hand (or even well optimized 400 point RPM mages). Not all effects grow with the square exponent, but enough of them do to cause headaches.

RPM gives every mage the potential to perform any effect. Even when specialized, RPM mages still feel like generalists. This can be good, but its not for every game or setting.

I've played more with RPM, simply because its easier to find players for and run a game with. I'm fond of the following tweaks:

• Banning Ritual Adept (connection)
• Requiring rituals to be researched before they are cast
• Encouraging Specialization via the pyramid on the subject
• Encouraging Powers as alternate abilities to Magery or Ritual Adept, especially for combat.

Not all of those are good for all games, but I always consider those.

[ericthered]

Oh, I remembered some tweaks I make to RPM.

I use the summoned modifier from ravens and pennies.

I also use a house rule where altered traits over 20 cost less.

• Up to 20 points: listed cost
• Up to 30 points: 25 Energy
• Up to 50 points: 30 Energy
• Up to 70 points: 35 Energy
• Up to 100 points: 40 Energy
• Up to 150 points: 45 Energy

And so forth.

[dataweaver]

My biggest fix for Realm Magic is that as written, the energy costs depend on how many levels you break things down to: if you don't break them down at all, the single level lets you do anything for a cost of 2FP; if you break them down into six levels each, the highest level costs 12FP to use. I standardize that by setting an energy cost for the highest level, whatever it might be, and calculating the energy costs of lower levels as appropriate fractions of that: if the highest level costs 6FP to use, then not breaking it down into levels means everything costs 6FP; but breaking it down into six levels makes the cost 1FP per level.

I also base energy cost entirely off of the highest Realm used (additional Realms don't increase it), and casting time entirely off of the number of Realms used: that's 3 seconds for a one-Realm working, and another second for each Realm after that. You can fast-cast by accepting a skill penalty for every second you shave off of the casting time, down to a minimum on one second; I think I went with -3 per second.

[AlexanderHowl]

Paradoxically, Realm Magic with fewer levels is more powerful (even though each level is more expensive). A three level Realm Magic system that echoed the Colleges of Magic would have a cost of 10 CP per level, but a character could have mastery for 30 CP (plus skill cost). Of course, it would still cost a lot to cast damaging spells, but that is the cost of flexibility.

[dataweaver]

The number of levels doesn't affect overall power (although it lets you get more Effects at lower levels); but the number of Realms does.

[DangerousThing]

Originally Posted by dataweaver

The number of levels doesn't affect overall power (although it lets you get more Effects at lower levels); but the number of Realms does.

Though with only one or two realms, the cp cost for the advantage is multiplied by 5. For 300 points, a character should be powerful.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by dataweaver

The number of levels doesn't affect overall power (although it lets you get more Effects at lower levels); but the number of Realms does.

Are we talking about Realm magic unmodified or about when using your house-rule? because if its unmodified doubling the number of levels potentially doubles the FP cost of an effect.