Realm magic for fantasy campaign

[Devil_Dante]

Hello there!
I would ask for your help, developing a good setup for my fantasy campaign.
long story short, I'm inspired by "malazan, book of the fallen". Magic is strong.

I found realm magic fits very well: I have 13 warrens (fire, ice, summoning, heal, transmutation......). Everyone of this should be one realm. Every realm should have 6 level, with one or two unusable by mere mortals.

Doing numbers, each level is worth 5 CP.

Now, what I aiming for is try to decide if I want use FP increase, skil penalties or MoS to fix the parameters.
I like MoS based, cause the effects of spells could be threatening. But i think something like area effect should be FP based. But the total FP ramp up quite fast.

Do you have any suggestion about the best combination of FP, Mos and skill penalties for the parameters, in order to have a threatening, still balance magic?

I saw good suggestion, damage wise, in different threads.

Right now, my choice was:
1) range, area, advantage/disadv CP= based on MoS.
2) damage, healing, possibility to reduce casting time, number of targets, weight= based on FP

Area spells should pay in any case FP for number of targets. In this way they have to pay FP and have a good MoS.

Any suggestion?

[ericthered]

So if both FP and margin of success matter, you've got a skill vs. power paradigm.

skilled mages can hit far-off targets and inflict crippling penalties on their foes.

powerful mages can do a great deal of damage, heal large amounts, move large objects, and effect large numbers of people.

Its a fair enough paradigm. I can't speak for how balanced or effective it is, but it should be at least interesting.

Does lighting a large fire count as targeting large numbers of people, or is it a pure area effect?

[Devil_Dante]

Good point..

I am a bit overwhelm.. I would avoid to let a single mage destroy the campaign single handed.. But after have played with vanilla magic for one year, I saw how frustrating could be cast some spells (a single magic missile, charged for 3 rounds, with a lot of FP invested and being dodged). So, I'm trying to looking for balance this realm magic (because I like more this idea of magic).

I feel MoS based could become very strong with a skill of 16 or more, and very weak with 13 or less.

FP based, instead, can become "one spell per fight and doing dice towers for the rest of the fight", or "kill everything while warriors doing dice tower".
. How do you manage these cases?

[dataweaver]

Note that magic missiles don't use the Range Parameter: the missiles are generated wherever the mage is, and then aimed according to the usual rules for ranged attacks. What you're using the Range Parameter for is the Regular and Area spells — the sorts of things that can't be dodged.

Also bear in mind that your players are likely to be a bit frustrated if you use the margin of success mechanic in a way that's a few facto skill penalty: that is, if they can't achieve a particular margin of success, the spell does nothing. In particular, a spell that's supposed to affect a Target who is 10 yards away but fails to generate enough of a margin of success to reach that far? It effectively fails. While the rules for the Range Parameter allow you to use MoS if you want, in practice it's not really suitable. So that leaves you with either skill penalty or energy cost. A similar argument applies to MoS-based Personal Abilities.

Because MoS applies in full to every Parameter that uses it, using MoS for more than one Parameter results in a sorry of “lockstep” effect: in your setup, the higher the MoS is, the larger the effect is; the further away it can be; and the more you can affect the target's personal abilities. In my games, I try to restrict MoS to a single Parameter; although what that Parameter is depends on the spell in question. Usually, it's Damage and/or Healing (these are the only ones that I allow to use MoS simultaneously), but it could also be Area or Duration. And in the case of Duration, it doesn't apply to “lasting” effects. It could also apply to Weight Affected; but only if it's possible to scale down the effects of the spell if you fail to achieve enough successes to get the full effect you're looking for: if you're talking about an all or nothing spell, then MoS-based Weight Affected isn't appropriate.

[Devil_Dante]

Originally Posted by dataweaver

Note that magic missiles don't use the Range Parameter: the missiles are generated wherever the mage is, and then aimed according to the usual rules for ranged attacks. What you're using the Range Parameter for is the Regular and Area spells — the sorts of things that can't be dodged.

Also bear in mind that your players are likely to be a bit frustrated if you use the margin of success mechanic in a way that's a few facto skill penalty: that is, if they can't achieve a particular margin of success, the spell does nothing. In particular, a spell that's supposed to affect a Target who is 10 yards away but fails to generate enough of a margin of success to reach that far? It effectively fails. While the rules for the Range Parameter allow you to use MoS if you want, in practice it's not really suitable. So that leaves you with either skill penalty or energy cost. A similar argument applies to MoS-based Personal Abilities.

Because MoS applies in full to every Parameter that uses it, using MoS for more than one Parameter results in a sorry of “lockstep” effect: in your setup, the higher the MoS is, the larger the effect is; the further away it can be; and the more you can affect the target's personal abilities. In my games, I try to restrict MoS to a single Parameter; although what that Parameter is depends on the spell in question. Usually, it's Damage and/or Healing (these are the only ones that I allow to use MoS simultaneously), but it could also be Area or Duration. And in the case of Duration, it doesn't apply to “lasting” effects. It could also apply to Weight Affected; but only if it's possible to scale down the effects of the spell if you fail to achieve enough successes to get the full effect you're looking for: if you're talking about an all or nothing spell, then MoS-based Weight Affected isn't appropriate.

Thanks for answer. I've read a lot of your replies and threads of yours. And i like your "relative level" mechanics (it's was i wanted to use thou, the first time i've read the rules of Realms).

Aout Mos and Skill penalties: both of them are similiar nonetheless.
If a target is 10 meters away and you didn't achieve enough MoS, the spell is failed. Ok. But if skill penalties make you fail the roll, it 's practical the same effect.

so, could be a good idea have MoS for damage and area (expecially area consumes a lot of FP if you want to use the FP rule) and skill penalties for other parameters?

[dataweaver]

The difference between all-or-nothing MoS and skill penalty is that the latter is more honest about it: it tells you up front how much more likely you are to fail if you attempt this thing. With an all-or-nothing MoS, you can achieve a success and have nothing happen. That's going to irritate players.

Do not use MoS for both Area and Damage. It's abusive enough as is using it for Area; using it for both would be overkill.

[Devil_Dante]

Originally Posted by dataweaver

The difference between all-or-nothing MoS and skill penalty is that the latter is more honest about it: it tells you up front how much more likely you are to fail if you attempt this thing. With an all-or-nothing MoS, you can achieve a success and have nothing happen. That's going to irritate players.

Do not use MoS for both Area and Damage. It's abusive enough as is using it for Area; using it for both would be overkill.

I'll be using only for area then, at least, they won't finish FP for one spell.
The problem i have with area spell is the linear decrease of damage: having an area of 10 meters and 3 meters, it's most likely, the same, damage wise.

Is there any solution to avoid this decrease in damage?

P.S.: for spells that increase or decrease skills and/or characteristics, skill penalties is the way to go right?

[Emerald Cat]

One advantage of skill penalties is that it makes it easier for players to buy Techniques for spells that they cast frequently. This would incentivize players to build their signature spells in advance, speeding up play.

[AlexanderHowl]

In general, I prefer FP cost to either skill penalty or margin of success for all parameters (it just seems fairer). Of course, you could allow players to accept skill penalties to reduce FP cost and/or you could reduce FP cost by MoS. The former rewards high skill with consistent savings while the latter rewards good luck. Using both effects to reduce FP would allow for a highly versatile magical system.

[Anaraxes]

I'd lean toward flavor for making the choice: does casting the same spell, only bigger, mean you just put more energy into it? Or is that increased area somehow a matter of finesse and expertise, not energy? (Or both -- perhaps you need more energy, which inevitably comes with a slightly larger skill penalty for handling it. Compare with heavy power tools or Bulk penalties.)

Originally Posted by Devil_Dante

The problem i have with area spell is the linear decrease of damage: having an area of 10 meters and 3 meters, it's most likely, the same, damage wise.

Why do you say it's the same damage? The mage is only going to use a (more expensive) AoE spell when its going to hit multiple targets. A 10-meter radius hits 10 times* as many targets as a 3-meter one. So in my mind, the larger spell does potentially 10 times the damage.

If you have some sort of scatter rules and to-hit for spells, then a caster might use a larger radius to improve the odds of hitting the desired target. (Think early ICBMs, and the decline in warhead power as missile accuracy improved -- after all, we tend to call those spells "nukes", right?)

In practice, it may be less, of course, since the targets may not be so numerous or dense. But then, that's a tactical choice by the mage -- more time for multiple, more precise spells in series, or one big one to save time? More choices generally makes for more interesting play, compared to a "spell list" with, say, exactly two pre-defined options (single target or fixed area, like the traditional 10' radius).

I'm assuming, of course, that your FP cost is based on area. Depending on your meta-physics for magic, it might just as well only cost for targets actually affected. (In which case the cost is exactly linear with the cost to damage a single target.) Perhaps a fire mage just wills the attacking orcs to burst into flame, and they all do, though nothing in between is affected. (This is an example that arguably calls for that skill penalty instead of or in addition to an increased FP cost.) Or perhaps he's the traditional pyromaniac who's into scorched earth, so he chooses to target every hex in a radius -- one big Fireball to ruin them all, along with everything else in the radius. Or perhaps mages can do either, the first saving energy at the cost of skill penalty for picky targeting, while the second is a simple spell but costs more energy. (You could even argue that the second form is both easier and cheaper -- you just open one little gate to the Elemental Plane of Fire, which rushes out on its own, as opposed to opening several even tinier gates simultaneously.)

Decide how magic is supposed to work and choose mechanics that give it that feel in play.

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* Yes, I know that's not an exact value, either for circles or hexes.