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Old 10-28-2019, 02:54 AM   #1
awesomenessofme1
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Default Some clarification about Striking vs Lifting ST

This is a followup to a thread I made a while ago about purchasing both regular Super ST along with additional Lifting Super ST.

If you have Super ST and Lifting Super ST, and you take an action that uses both Lifting and Striking ST, a single instance of Super-Effort will cover all of it, correct?

And a related question. I'm building a super for my Malice setting who likes to throw things with his super-strength and I have a few questions about that. It's obvious everything to do with the weight is based on BL (and thus Lifting ST) while everything based on damage is based on thrust damage (and thus Striking ST). What is the distance based on? And as a somewhat related question, are there any ways to handle the quirks that pop up when throwing things with disparate Lifting and Striking ST? It seems a bit implausible to be tossing around 10-ton truck and getting massive damage penalties because you could be tossing around 100 tons.

If it's relevant, the character has Super ST+10/+100 and an additional Super Lifting ST +6 (for a total of +1000 with Super-Effort) So effectively Lifting ST 1020 and Striking ST 120.
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Old 10-28-2019, 05:34 AM   #2
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: Some clarification about Striking vs Lifting ST

Lifting ST represents slow action while Striking ST represents fast action. Since throwing distance depends on throwing speed, throwing distance would depend on Striking ST. Damage is a function of mass and velocity though, so I would base damage as if the object was slamming the target rather than normal throwing damage because of the vast difference between Lifting ST and Striking ST.
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Old 10-28-2019, 06:38 AM   #3
naloth
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Default Re: Some clarification about Striking vs Lifting ST

Quote:
Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1 View Post
This is a followup to a thread I made a while ago about purchasing both regular Super ST along with additional Lifting Super ST.

If you have Super ST and Lifting Super ST, and you take an action that uses both Lifting and Striking ST, a single instance of Super-Effort will cover all of it, correct?
Since you can use it as a single action additive, sure.

Quote:
It seems a bit implausible to be tossing around 10-ton truck and getting massive damage penalties because you could be tossing around 100 tons.
That's not quite accurate. Lifting ST (as stated above) is more of a slow and steady pressure. You can lift and drop 100 tons, but you can only toss around 10 tons because that requires fast jerky action. High Lifting ST is ideal for lifting, hauling around things, and squeezing (grapples/wrestle). Striking ST is good for tossing and striking. Malice can flip, drop, and grapple with Lifting ST, but would use Striking ST for throwing related activities.

If you want Malice to be great at throwing, I'd suggest a few levels of Super Throw. Just 3 levels would add +6 damage per die and multiply throwing range by x8 for only 30 points. With ST 20 Thr 2d-1, that's a base 2d+11 (5d) damage. With ST 100 Thr 11d, that's 11d+66 (~30d-1).
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Old 10-28-2019, 10:06 AM   #4
awesomenessofme1
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Default Re: Some clarification about Striking vs Lifting ST

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Since you can use it as a single action additive, sure.



That's not quite accurate. Lifting ST (as stated above) is more of a slow and steady pressure. You can lift and drop 100 tons, but you can only toss around 10 tons because that requires fast jerky action. High Lifting ST is ideal for lifting, hauling around things, and squeezing (grapples/wrestle). Striking ST is good for tossing and striking. Malice can flip, drop, and grapple with Lifting ST, but would use Striking ST for throwing related activities.

If you want Malice to be great at throwing, I'd suggest a few levels of Super Throw. Just 3 levels would add +6 damage per die and multiply throwing range by x8 for only 30 points. With ST 20 Thr 2d-1, that's a base 2d+11 (5d) damage. With ST 100 Thr 11d, that's 11d+66 (~30d-1).
Couple things. First and least importantly, Malice is the setting. Titan is the super. Second of all, the damage modifier for throwing is based on fraction of BL, which is based on lifting. If you're suggesting that everything based on throwing should be based on Striking ST, then that might be a workable way to do it, but it wouldn't be what I'd want to use here. The whole point is him wanting to partially use his Lifting ST in combat.
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Old 10-28-2019, 10:17 AM   #5
naloth
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Default Re: Some clarification about Striking vs Lifting ST

Quote:
Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1 View Post
Couple things. First and least importantly, Malice is the setting. Titan is the super. Second of all, the damage modifier for throwing is based on fraction of BL, which is based on lifting. If you're suggesting that everything based on throwing should be based on Striking ST, then that might be a workable way to do it, but it wouldn't be what I'd want to use here. The whole point is him wanting to partially use his Lifting ST in combat.
http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...8&postcount=27

You can read the thread, but basically what I put above was the implication. Throwing was never intended to work off a Lifting ST ratio.

Grappling uses Lifting ST. If Titan ever got his hands on someone ST1000 would be quite useful for grappling/crushing.
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Old 10-28-2019, 10:18 AM   #6
awesomenessofme1
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Default Re: Some clarification about Striking vs Lifting ST

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
Lifting ST represents slow action while Striking ST represents fast action. Since throwing distance depends on throwing speed, throwing distance would depend on Striking ST. Damage is a function of mass and velocity though, so I would base damage as if the object was slamming the target rather than normal throwing damage because of the vast difference between Lifting ST and Striking ST.
Id thought about doing something like that, but the issue is to figure out damage from a slam, you need HP and velocity. HP you'd need to calculate every time and velocity I don't think there's a way to get exact numbers. The way I see it, it's gamable enough to use Striking ST for damage. Even if something seems like it doesn't deal enough damage, it will still trap them under an inevitable object.
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Old 10-28-2019, 10:23 AM   #7
awesomenessofme1
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Default Re: Some clarification about Striking vs Lifting ST

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...8&postcount=27

You can read the thread, but basically what I put above was the implication. Throwing was never intended to work off a Lifting ST ratio.

Grappling uses Lifting ST. If Titan ever got his hands on someone ST1000 would be quite useful for grappling/crushing.
Ah. Guess that's settled then. ST 120 is still better than anyone else in the setting except the shrink/grow guy at max size. I'll take a few levels of Super Throw and think about switching his super ST from 10/6 to 11/5
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Old 10-28-2019, 10:57 AM   #8
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: Some clarification about Striking vs Lifting ST

Quote:
Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1 View Post
The whole point is him wanting to partially use his Lifting ST in combat.
Outside of a super high-powered bow (which IIRC "Deadly Spring" has using Lifting ST), using momentary Lifting ST in combat is probably going to be for quick grapple maneuvers and smashing heavy stuff down on them. For the former, a less-lethal fatigue-damaging bear hug (MA117) is arguably your best option (due to it allowing capture - at least if the GM lets you check yourself retroactively - as well as potentially bypassing high-HP foes' resilience), but Wrench Limb, Neck Snap, and the various locks can also be of use. For the latter, while the slamming-down movement looks like a strike, I'd be willing to just do it as a fall from the character's height. I'd say he can pull it off with anything up to his BL, so around 100 tons. If he finds such an object, and assuming he's around 2 yards tall, he can slam it down for a decent 16d+1* cr or so. Compared to the bear hug above - which is a quick contest of 1015 (considering the -5 for lacking Constriction Attack) vs the higher of the foe's ST or HT, and does FP damage equal to your MoV (hence needing to be able to check yourself to avoid pulping most foes) - picking something up and slamming it down is pretty much useless.


*This uses the "unliving" multiplier of 4 for HP. Living objects will do around 8d, while homogenous ones will do around 33d-1. I personally find it ridiculous that a 100 ton monster (living) does less damage than a 100 ton zombified version of said monster (unliving), which in turn does less damage than a 100 ton sack of meat from a few such monsters (homogenous), but whatever.
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