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Old 03-05-2019, 02:49 AM   #1
WaterAndWindSpirit
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Default Dead man pulling the trigger

So, I'm assuming that if such rules exist, they're in Tactical shooting...

Are there rules to see if someone holding a ready gun (finger on the trigger, safety's off) pulls the trigger on reflex upon being injured/rendered unconscious/killed?

It's a common enough issue in real life and one of the reasons you shouldn't shoot at a hostage taker if they have the gun to the hostage's head even if you had good enough Improbable Aiming Skill to shoot the hostage taker without hitting the hostage reliably, so I want to know how to resolve that.

If a character manages to sneak behind a hostage taker in such a situation, how should they act to save the hostage from that kind of discharge?

Thanks!
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Old 03-05-2019, 03:10 AM   #2
Ultraviolet
 
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Default Re: Dead man pulling the trigger

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Originally Posted by WaterAndWindSpirit View Post
So, I'm assuming that if such rules exist, they're in Tactical shooting...

Are there rules to see if someone holding a ready gun (finger on the trigger, safety's off) pulls the trigger on reflex upon being injured/rendered unconscious/killed?

It's a common enough issue in real life and one of the reasons you shouldn't shoot at a hostage taker if they have the gun to the hostage's head even if you had good enough Improbable Aiming Skill to shoot the hostage taker without hitting the hostage reliably, so I want to know how to resolve that.

If a character manages to sneak behind a hostage taker in such a situation, how should they act to save the hostage from that kind of discharge?

Thanks!
One way would be if the hostage taker has an Wait action, and pulls the trigger if the opponent shoots.
The questions are then:
By the time you hear the shot, are you already dead?
What if you're shot by an unseen sniper?
How fast are you actually killed by a shot? Or is it enough to just pass out or go in shock?

IIRC there aren't any rules for involuntarily pulling the trigger if injured or killed.
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Old 03-05-2019, 03:20 AM   #3
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Default Re: Dead man pulling the trigger

At the very least I would require that the hostage taker be killed instantly by a brain hit.

If they can see the shooter at a reasonable range, they get a Perception check to realise that the shooter is about to fire. On a critical failure they think they're about to get shot when they aren't... I'd roll the check after each new 'event' in the situation - the negotiator makes a new demand, the hostage-taker makes one, and so on.
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Old 03-05-2019, 03:40 AM   #4
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Default Re: Dead man pulling the trigger

There are no specific rules for this, which means that the GM has to adjudicate it. How it should be done varies by genre and desired tone, but if the GM leans toward simulationism, I'd recommend evaluating any factors that the GM feels could influence the outcome, estimating odds according to that and rolling.

For example, decide if the character has good or bad trigger discipline, if they were preparing to fire at the exact moment they were hit, if they were instantly incapacitated or if it took some time, even if it might have been only a fraction of a second, for death or unconsciousness to result from injuries.

The weapon that the dead or dying character was holding also matters. Did it have a mechanical safety, was that engaged, what is the trigger pull weight, etc.? It's a lot easier to 'accidentally' pull the trigger of a hair-trigger single-action weapon that is ready to fire than it is to do so for a double-action revolver or a DAO semi-automatic pistol with a 12-lb trigger.

A character that is currently engaged in a firefight or for any other reason has his finger on a trigger of a weapon and is preparing to fire is probably fairly likely to pull the trigger involuntarily if hit, but realistically, even if he does, it's most likely that this is not an actual attack and will probably be fired in a random direction (and likely upwards) as the character falls.

Only if the weapon is right next to a target, like in the example of a hostage taker with his gun jammed against the head of a hostage, would I consider it likely enough for someone to be injured to worry about it. Otherwise, the odds of anyone being hit is no more than by any other miss in combat. And what I would do in the situation is use the same rules, i.e. 'Hitting the Wrong Target', which would mean that a roll of 9 or less means a hit. But that's only if there was an accidental discharge at all, which I'd probably roll for separately.

What I generally do is say that outcomes that strike me as plausible, but not certain, are about 50/50 and then modified by any factors I think make them more or less likely. So, I'd roll three dice and say that there was a discharge on a 11 or higher, modified by any factors I felt were important, so that maybe only a 17-18 resulted in a discharge from a weapon with a heavy trigger held at ready, but not prepared to fire at the next millisecond, so with the finger off the trigger.
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Old 03-05-2019, 01:37 PM   #5
Black Leviathan
 
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Default Re: Dead man pulling the trigger

The real life justification for being weary of finger-on-the-trigger hostage situations is not the unlikely chance of a reflexive firing but that the shock of a gunshot will not set in fast enough to prevent the hostage taker from simply pulling the trigger of an aimed weapon.

If the player is shooting a hostage taker with a gun trained on a hostages skull. I'd require them to either do Ht x 5 damage to kill them outright or have the hostage taker fail knockdown or consciousness check. I'd say if the hostage taker is in a held action they can squeeze a trigger even if the attack stuns them. If they attack comes from out of their line of sight where they can't see the muzzle flare they have to remain conscious and unstunned in order to react to the shot. A crippling shot to hand or arm would also prevent the shot, but that can be hard to do when shooting around a hostage.
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Old 03-05-2019, 01:52 PM   #6
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Default Re: Dead man pulling the trigger

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The real life justification for being weary of finger-on-the-trigger hostage situations is not the unlikely chance of a reflexive firing but that the shock of a gunshot will not set in fast enough to prevent the hostage taker from simply pulling the trigger of an aimed weapon.

If the player is shooting a hostage taker with a gun trained on a hostages skull. I'd require them to either do Ht x 5 damage to kill them outright or have the hostage taker fail knockdown or consciousness check. I'd say if the hostage taker is in a held action they can squeeze a trigger even if the attack stuns them. If they attack comes from out of their line of sight where they can't see the muzzle flare they have to remain conscious and unstunned in order to react to the shot. A crippling shot to hand or arm would also prevent the shot, but that can be hard to do when shooting around a hostage.
Realistically, nothing except a shot that instantly destroys the central nervous system will ensure that a hostage taker cannot pull a trigger deliberately before he dies. Even if you cause HPx6 injury with rifle shots to the Vitals, which probably represents the complete destruction of the heart, among other organs, it still won't stop a finger from pulling a trigger, not realistically.

And even a perfect cerebellum hit with a tactical rifle cannot completely prevent the chance of an accidental discharge while the hostage taker collapses, although, as I noted, the odds of that accidental discharge actually harming anyone are not necessarily all that high, not unless the hostage taker has literally placed the muzzle of his weapon in contact with the hostage.
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Old 03-05-2019, 02:40 PM   #7
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Default Re: Dead man pulling the trigger

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Realistically, nothing except a shot that instantly destroys the central nervous system will ensure that a hostage taker cannot pull a trigger deliberately before he dies.
Well, anything that severs the nerve connection to the fingers will do the job. Hard to do with a gun, though.
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Old 03-05-2019, 04:20 PM   #8
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Default Re: Dead man pulling the trigger

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Well, anything that severs the nerve connection to the fingers will do the job. Hard to do with a gun, though.
OR which simply disintegrates the hand or the muscles of the forearm that operate the fingers. Hard to do with modern weapons without also disintegrating the hostage as well, though.
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Old 03-05-2019, 06:06 PM   #9
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Default Re: Dead man pulling the trigger

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OR which simply disintegrates the hand or the muscles of the forearm that operate the fingers. Hard to do with modern weapons without also disintegrating the hostage as well, though.
Large-caliber gunshot to the hand is probably close enough. Not a shot sensible people want to bet large stakes on making, but PCs might.
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Old 03-05-2019, 06:15 PM   #10
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Default Re: Dead man pulling the trigger

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Large-caliber gunshot to the hand is probably close enough.
If by 'large caliber' you mean a midsized cannon, sure. Shoot the hand and you'll mostly create a bullet-sized hole in the hand, it's not thick enough to do much exciting with tumbling or fragmenting. A lot of this depends on what's exposed anyway, there's no guarantee that any specific location can be hit without shooting through the hostage.
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