Benefits of Evil [Horror]

[AlexanderHowl]

While evil is often a feature of horror settings, the true horror of evil is that it is often victorious. In real life, this is often because evil people are willing to sacrifice morals/ethics to achieve their goals, and are often capable of convincing groups to go along with them, and the groups will often rationalize their actions as 'necessary' if they are victorious. In horror settings, evil often comes with supernatural benefits, which are often difficult to quantify.

In a setting that where evil gives supernatural benefits, such benefits could be represented by modifying the Corruption rules. Individuals would gain Corruption as normal, but they would then reduce Corruption gained by 1 point for every -5 CP that they would have in 'evil' disadvantages (minimum '1' Corruption point per use of Corruption). Evil disadvantages would include Bad Temper, Berserk, Bully, Gluttony, Greedy, Jealousy, Laziness, Lecherousness, Megalomania, Miserliness, Overconfidence, and Sadism. Conversely, characters would increase Corruption gained by 1 point for every -5 CP that they would have in 'good' disadvantages (Code of Honor, Honesty, Sense of Duty, etc.).

For example, a character with Bully (12-) [-10], Lecherousness (12-) [-15], and Sadism (12-) [-15] would likely be quite despicable, but they would reduce any points of Corruption gained from tapping into evil by 8 per use (minimum '1' Corruption point per use). Conversely, a heroic character with Code of Honor (Gentleman's) [-10] and Sense of Duty (Everyone they know personally) [-10] would increase any Corruption gained from tapping into evil by 4 per use. Evil characters would not become much more evil by tapping into evil while good characters would become much more evil by tapping into evil. In such a setting, evil characters would receive substantial benefits, and there would be a temptation for PCs to give into evil in order to level the playing field.

So, how would you represent the supernatural benefits of evil? Would you use a similar system as the above or would you do something else? If you did use a similar system, what do you think would be the consequences in your games? If you used something else, how would you represent the benefits of evil?

[lvalero]

I have a different proposal to model something simmilar.

When GM replaces "corruption points" by disadvantages, he may "pack" and advantage and disadvantage at the same time. For example Attractive [4] + Callous [-5]: by a net total of -1

This way you only reduces your corruption total as if you have only gained a [-1] disadvantage. You have a minor incentive to keep delving into corruption. And the "evil powers" are making you a more dangerous corrupted antagonist.

Some other combinations may include "uglier but stronger" or "less healthy but smarter". Two things are important

- GM not always give this "corrupted bonus". Evil powers are fickle
- It is the GM, and not the PC who "selects and packs" the advantage+disadvantage

[RedMattis]

Heck, you could go further than that. In a campaign where the characters are supposed to be the good guys, or semi-good guys like working for Black Ops you could make corruption a net positive, but unless you can purge yourself of it you risk turning into a monster and eventually become an NPC enemy.

F.ex. a version of Split Personality where the split personality is an enemy controlled by the GM is going to discourage almost any player from intentionally getting themselves corrupted no matter how how strong the demonic power (or whatever) makes them.

If they don't, well, they will eventually be the "enemy" more than themselves and become an NPC. I might give the other characters one last chance to pull them back before I declare them permanently NPC:ed. The NPC enemy might of course still struggle with the original personality trying to stop them at inopportune times if so disposed. Either way losing to the evil and becoming an enemy is a pretty common trope for corruption, and I think it works better for story-telling than just stacking disadvantages until the corrupted character is a hideous frothing absent-minded murder-sadist kleptomaniac with a gambling addiction and an obsession with accumulating wealth.

If you do go for just getting slowly more and more twisted then I would suggest sticking to a specific disadvantage group, possibly related to the source of the corruption. Perhaps dealing with things-man-was-not-meant-to-know does just make you insane, while dealing with christian-style demons will lead you to exclusively pick up disadvantages related to their circle. Once the control values of the disadvantages and obsessions get too high you warn the player that their character will soon become unsuitable as a PC and get relegated to NPC-dom.

F.ex. someone drawing power from the Sin of Pride might start picking up disadvantages like Overconfidence, Selfish, Code of "Honor": Never let an insult go unanswered, until eventually they stop functioning as 'good guys' due to picking up stuff like Vow "I help myself and myself alone".

You could do the same for "Good" powers, especially if these good powers are too uncompromising to be functional in modern society, or anywhere even. Perhaps they are more like forces of nature than something with an actual functional philosophy Anyway, f.ex. Charity: Selfless, Vow of Poverty, might all be very manageable. Total Pacifism and Sense of Duty (Every entity possessing a mind) is not, especially not taken to the point where you stop other monster hunters from actually hunting monsters.

Other "Good" powers might simply make you so intolerant of even the most minor failings of your companions that you would strike them down. A very literally "holier than tho" behavior.

(Probably don't base good powers on the 7 heavenly virtues though, because they don't make much sense as a power source. ...or in general. I mean "Chastity" as a heavenly virtue, really?)

[Mr_Sandman]

The issue that I see with this is that the effect of corruption is gaining points in 'evil' disadvantages, or losing points in 'good' disadvantages. If the points in evil disadvantages slow the accumulation of corruption, it puts the brakes on the slide into evil. I'd rather have it be a vicious cycle, where the decent into evil accelerates as a character becomes more and more corrupted.

[AlexanderHowl]

I would argue that is not really appropriate for a horror setting though. I would actually suggest that a setting where evil people accumulate points of Corruption faster than good people is the opposite of a horror setting. There is really no conflict between good and evil within the PCs (or their players), as only foolish and/desperate people would give into evil (evil would be pathetic rather than threatening).

In my mind, a proper horror setting is one where bad things happen to innocent people because bad people get away with doing bad things. The conflict in the minds of PCs (and their players) comes from the simple fact that becoming evil will make them more powerful, which will often result in a form of noble corruption. In fact, many evil people within horror settings will have initially committed evil actions for the best of reasons, but they eventually become so corrupted that they become what they were fighting against.

In such a horror setting, the road to damnation would literally be paved with good intentions, as the first step towards damnation would often come from the betrayal of ones principles because doing so would be more effective and/or efficient. Whether it was mundanes giving into evil to gain skill bonuses or mages giving into evil to power magical rituals, the end result would likely be the same, an appreciation of how easy evil makes life and how keeping to their principles only needlessly complicates their lives. In the case of PCs (and their players), they would need to fight against temptation every session to avoid falling into evil, as evil would always be available to lend a hand.

[Inky]

Originally Posted by RedMattis

(Probably don't base good powers on the 7 heavenly virtues though, because they don't make much sense as a power source. ...or in general. I mean "Chastity" as a heavenly virtue, really?)

It's not. It's Faith, Hope, Charity, Justice, Temperance, Fortitude, Patience. Actually, they sound workable as power sources for at least some things, if you're talking RPGs. As much so as "Pride", anyway.

[RedMattis]

Originally Posted by Inky

It's not. It's Faith, Hope, Charity, Justice, Temperance, Fortitude, Patience. Actually, they sound workable as power sources for at least some things, if you're talking RPGs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_virtues

After Pope Gregory I released his list of seven deadly sins in AD 590, the seven virtues became identified as chastity, temperance, charity, diligence, patience, kindness, and humility.

There are other versions of the virtues of course. Even more if you involve fringe splinters of the Abrahamic religions. Any Code-of-Conduct could work as an oath for "good" powers. But I was talking about this in the context of "corrupting" or twisting you with 'too much' or too radical a version of something, and I don't see how radical Temperance could ever 'ruin' a person. At worst you'd become some Buddhist monk-stereotype talking about balance in all things, which hardly seems like horrific corruption.

As much so as "Pride", anyway.

I mean, even outside of religious situations Pride is still among the worst. It is the trait of everyone from Megalomaniac would-be world conquerors to jerks orchestrating petty revenge because their fragile ego was injured ("Selfish").

It is in a sense worse than Greed and Envy because while those two constantly seek to obtain more, the intensely Prideful simply feel they deserve to own the world, and to damnation with anyone who dares question their divine decree.

Pride is also the one most likely to corrupt the "virtuous". Or as Weird Al comically put it with someone contradictorily bragging about humility...

Originally Posted by 'Weird Al' Yankovic's Amish Paradise

Think you're really righteous?
Think you're pure in heart?
Well, I know I'm a million times as humble as thou art

'I am more worthy than you, hence I'm better than you. Don't you dare challenge this.' - Pride

It is the political/religious/ideological extremist who thinks they are saving the world, yet their fragile ego leads them to condemn anyone who attempts to tell them otherwise. It is how you literally get people so deluded that they guarding the literal Auschwitz and yet somehow think they are the heroes.

So yeah, Pride is one hell of a sin. I don't agree with much of the christian messages, especially not their virtues, but putting Pride as the worst of the sins I agree with 100%.

Edit: PS. don't mix up the Sin of Pride with having a healthy sense of self-worth. Those are not the same thing.

[Inky]

Oh, I never heard that version.

I suppose the seven virtues words (yours especially) have the notion of being a good thing, and by definition not too much, baked in.

As for Pride, we were talking about two different things, it turns out. I was thinking of Pride powering Pride-related spells, and wondering what a Pride-related spell would be when it's at home. Though it might be relevant to a mind-control spell, getting somebody to believe every word you say because you are clearly just that awesome. (Which, in the real world, often seems to be the result of you yourself believing you are just that awesome - rightly or wrongly. A confident lunatic has a good start in getting themselves a following.) But, yes, if we're talking about qualities that might be dangerous to you and everyone else if you took them too far for the sake of extracting more magic, Pride is a doozy.

[RedMattis]

Originally Posted by Inky

Pride is a doozy.

I have no idea what doozy means, and googling it just brought up "something outstanding or unique of its kind."

Pride-related spells

I figure it depends on what we mean by drawing power from and being corrupted by Pride.

If it is Pride as a force itself then it might be charisma, mind control, terror, etc. at the cost of eventually getting corrupted by stuff like Megalomania and later going completely bonkers insane as the mental flaws all get cranked up to 11.

But it could just as well be getting corrupted to be more like a "Pride Demon", or "Embodiment of Pride". Channeling the power of Pride might let you wield the powers of such creatures. This might let you fetter victims to the ground with burning chains or temporarily sprout golden radiant wings. The corruption might take form of not just prideful personal traits, but eventually painfully obvious supernatural traits like glowing skin or outright materializing a spiked golden halo of light.

If you have a demonic patron or leech the power of a demon (whose True name you know f.ex.) your traits might depend on them. F.ex. one practitioner might end up looking like a blatant golden (fake) angel, while another guy might end up a shadow-engulfed character of unnatural height and a ghostly air about them. The corruption playing of the individuals own weaknesses could be a similar excuse for this kind of divergence in just how the corruption occurs. This might help mix things up so Villain-powered-by/actual-pride-demon don't get to predictable.

[arcanus]

In a world of tangible supernatural evil I would have corruptive templates or lenses with the point value purely being a bar for the accumulating corruption points to reach before applying.

I would avoid good or evil accumulating any quicker or slower than the other, evil deeds are evil deeds irrespective of the character of the person.

This would be handled in game anyway as truly evil people would willingly embrace corruptive acts and accumulate corruption more rapidly.

I’d have the corruption effects be external to the character, people beginning to avoid the character, fearing them. Lifebane, no reflection, scares animals, bad luck, weirdness magnet, omens - essentially effects under the GMs control whilst being evil giving generous bonuses to the character to read more of the book or call more power.

Or have them slowly turn into monsters.

The lenses could follow the Cult Initiate grades in Horror Magic, having corruption point levels until the full lense is reached.