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Old 09-09-2013, 05:22 PM   #1
JCurwen3
 
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Default [Technical Grappling] ST as a Proxy for Mass

I have what might be a stupid question about ST as a Proxy for Mass (Technical Grappling, p.20).

I have a specific character in mind, but this is a general question. The character is a dwarf, weighing in at 131 lbs, with 10 HP. But he's paranormally strong, at ST 80. His ST isn't tied to his mass or bulk at all (it sort of represents a sort of "skin-tight TK"), although his HP roughly are based on his mass.

Where, in grappling (with these new rules), should ST not be used, and what modifications should be made when ST is totally out of proportion to either mass or even bulk?
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Old 09-09-2013, 05:33 PM   #2
DouglasCole
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Default Re: [Technical Grappling] ST as a Proxy for Mass

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Originally Posted by JCurwen3 View Post
I have what might be a stupid question about ST as a Proxy for Mass (Technical Grappling, p.20).

I have a specific character in mind, but this is a general question. The character is a dwarf, weighing in at 131 lbs, with 10 HP. But he's paranormally strong, at ST 80. His ST isn't tied to his mass or bulk at all (it sort of represents a sort of "skin-tight TK"), although his HP roughly are based on his mass.

Where, in grappling (with these new rules), should ST not be used, and what modifications should be made when ST is totally out of proportion to either mass or even bulk?
We flirted with "Trained HP" before we mocked it right out of the manuscript.

Where ST is a proxy for mass, well, so are HP. We used ST because RAW often uses ST, and I really, really wasn't out to totally rewrite everything. There are also times where slavishly replacing ST with HP in these cases mightn't be much of an improvement.

You never roll against HP, as an example, that I can think of. I've been on record before as not wanting to ever roll against ST either.

I'd say ST might still play a role in Change Position, Force Posture Change, and Shoving People Around. The rest are probably best looked at as HP.

You still have to get over rolling vs HP, though. No avoiding it. :-)
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Old 09-09-2013, 05:51 PM   #3
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Default Re: [Technical Grappling] ST as a Proxy for Mass

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I'd say ST might still play a role in Change Position, Force Posture Change, and Shoving People Around. The rest are probably best looked at as HP.

You still have to get over rolling vs HP, though. No avoiding it. :-)
Thanks for the fast answer! Yeah, rolling vs HP will be a bit of an adjustment, but I think it makes sense in these oddball positively non-mundane cases.

Of course, HP can sometimes be massless too, although I hate that and never allow it personally. I guess in those cases, some HP score that represents mass alone would have to be calculated and used instead.
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Old 09-09-2013, 06:13 PM   #4
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Default Re: [Technical Grappling] ST as a Proxy for Mass

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We flirted with "Trained HP" before we mocked it right out of the manuscript.

Where ST is a proxy for mass, well, so are HP. We used ST because RAW often uses ST, and I really, really wasn't out to totally rewrite everything. There are also times where slavishly replacing ST with HP in these cases mightn't be much of an improvement.
The other trouble with using HP as a proxy is that Unliving things need to buy double HP, and Homogeneous quadruple. So in GURPS' model of the real world, HP varies more from mass than ST does.

My ideal solution would be to make Mass a derived stat based on ST and proportional to the cube root of mass which can be bought up or down for something negligible. That would add one box to a character sheet, and one calculation at the start of play.
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Old 09-09-2013, 07:36 PM   #5
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Default Re: [Technical Grappling] ST as a Proxy for Mass

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The other trouble with using HP as a proxy is that Unliving things need to buy double HP, and Homogeneous quadruple. So in GURPS' model of the real world, HP varies more from mass than ST does.

My ideal solution would be to make Mass a derived stat based on ST and proportional to the cube root of mass which can be bought up or down for something negligible. That would add one box to a character sheet, and one calculation at the start of play.
Consider this the forum equivalent of a +1
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Old 09-09-2013, 07:42 PM   #6
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Default Re: [Technical Grappling] ST as a Proxy for Mass

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My ideal solution would be to make Mass a derived stat based on ST and proportional to the cube root of mass which can be bought up or down for something negligible.
Possibly even a negative value; being more difficult to transport and taking extra damage in falls is arguably worse than the benefits you get.
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Old 09-09-2013, 10:05 PM   #7
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Default Re: [Technical Grappling] ST as a Proxy for Mass

We already have an Afflciiton for changing your Mass.
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Old 09-09-2013, 11:38 PM   #8
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Default Re: [Technical Grappling] ST as a Proxy for Mass

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The other trouble with using HP as a proxy is that Unliving things need to buy double HP, and Homogeneous quadruple. So in GURPS' model of the real world, HP varies more from mass than ST does.

My ideal solution would be to make Mass a derived stat based on ST and proportional to the cube root of mass which can be bought up or down for something negligible. That would add one box to a character sheet, and one calculation at the start of play.
Personally, in my house rules I do it the other way around. I have a Size (SZ) attribute (10 points per level) that replaces the ST attribute, and it determines your height, mass, and SM. Lifting ST (5 x level*), Striking ST (3 x level*), and HP (2 x level) start out equal to your SZ, but are then modifiable independently (much like HP start out equal to ST but can be changed independently under the RAW).

Note, I reversed the values of Lifting ST and Striking ST in my houserules because I use a different combat system in which damage is based on how fast you can swing the weapon and it's mass, thus Lifting ST actually has more of an impact on damage than Striking ST did. Striking ST just added a small bonus to it afterward, but wasn't nearly as useful as Lifting ST. If you prefer RAW and how RAW calculates damage, just change them back to (3 x level) for Lifting ST and (5 x level) for Striking ST.

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Old 09-10-2013, 01:38 PM   #9
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Default Re: [Technical Grappling] ST as a Proxy for Mass

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My ideal solution would be to make Mass a derived stat based on ST and proportional to the cube root of mass which can be bought up or down for something negligible. That would add one box to a character sheet, and one calculation at the start of play.
I definitely like the idea of a Mass stat. I favour the calculation where it'd be proportional to the square root of mass (0.85 x sqrt(mass_in_lbs)), but basically I'm in agreement. As is, I rigidly reject "massless HP" ideas in my games, but then, of course, there's Unliving and Homogenous things, which are x2 or x4 to HP, respectively. I might just use an "Unmodified HP" for Mass, ignoring the Unliving / Homogenous status there.

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The other trouble with using HP as a proxy is that Unliving things need to buy double HP, and Homogeneous quadruple.
This may have been answered before (maybe even recently), but does GURPS suggest multiplying HP for those types of things, as well as using their Injury Tolerance values for reducing the injury from various types of damage. So, if I have an unliving creature, would I calculate its HP from its mass and then double it and give it IT:Unliving (giving imp and pi++ a wounding modifier of x1; pi+, x1/2; pi, x1/3; and pi-, x1/5), or one or the other. I think both, just double checking.
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Old 09-10-2013, 02:18 PM   #10
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Default Re: [Technical Grappling] ST as a Proxy for Mass

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This may have been answered before (maybe even recently), but does GURPS suggest multiplying HP for those types of things, as well as using their Injury Tolerance values for reducing the injury from various types of damage. So, if I have an unliving creature, would I calculate its HP from its mass and then double it and give it IT:Unliving (giving imp and pi++ a wounding modifier of x1; pi+, x1/2; pi, x1/3; and pi-, x1/5), or one or the other. I think both, just double checking.
Both are applied, yes.
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