multiple damage, weapon master and other weirdness

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

Are natural weapons powered by something other than muscles?

Natural weapons receive the damage bonus from karate.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

Are natural weapons powered by something other than muscles?

That's what I thought.

Punches and kicks appear on the Muscle-Powered Weapons tables and they are clearly powered by muscles.

It causes me cognative dissonance that someone could have half penalty on Rapid Strikes and Parries if he wore a gauntlet or brass knuckles, but not if his knuckles were bare.

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by sikker

Weapon Master clearly says:
"You have a high degree of training or unnerving talent with a particular class of muscle-powered weapons". So yes only weapons and not karate or wrestling.
For those things you should take Trained By A Master.

Fists and feet and elbows and knees are natural weapons, and I don't see where they're powered by anything other than muscles, so I'm not too sure.

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by aesir23

Natural weapons receive the damage bonus from karate.

They're still muscle-powered, though, aren't they?

I'd have no problem saying that the damage bonuses from high Karate skill because of Weapon Master and from high Karate skill because it's, well, high Karate skill, don't stack. That only makes sense, although it does sort of imply that Weapon Master (Natural Weapons) or (All) improves the damage bonus possible for Brawling to the same as Karate. Or Sumo Wrestling, or what have you.

However, I see no reason why having Weapon Master (All) shouldn't allow you the same reductions in penalties for Rapid Strike and multiple parries on your natural weapons as with all other types of weapons.

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by Icelander

That's what I thought.

Punches and kicks appear on the Muscle-Powered Weapons tables and they are clearly powered by muscles.

It causes me cognative dissonance that someone could have half penalty on Rapid Strikes and Parries if he wore a gauntlet or brass knuckles, but not if his knuckles were bare.

Exactly. I don't think the damage bonuses should stack, although those for, say, Brawling might improve. That would be a monstrous munchkin point crock. But the reduced penalties? Yeah, those should apply in either condition.

[Tyneras]

A better solution would have been to turn the fighting skills (Brawling, Wrestling, Boxing, Judo, etc.) into generic striking and grappling skills with no bonus damage for high skill, and give the bonus damage to Trained by a Master. Maybe combine Weapon Master and Trained by a Master into a single advantage (Combat Master? Melee Master?) and just make them specializations of that.

But we play with the RPG we have, not the RPG we want. Unless you houserule it. ;)

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by Tyneras

A better solution would have been to turn the fighting skills (Brawling, Wrestling, Boxing, Judo, etc.) into generic striking and grappling skills with no bonus damage for high skill, and give the bonus damage to Trained by a Master. Maybe combine Weapon Master and Trained by a Master into a single advantage (Combat Master? Melee Master?) and just make them specializations of that.

But we play with the RPG we have, not the RPG we want. Unless you houserule it. ;)

Well, I don't consider my ruling to be a house rule, but rather a case of sticking strictly to RAW. WM says the 45 point level covers all muscle-powered weapons, natural weapons such as fists and feet are powered by muscles, therefore... ;-)

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

Well, I don't consider my ruling to be a house rule, but rather a case of sticking strictly to RAW. WM says the 45 point level covers all muscle-powered weapons, natural weapons such as fists and feet are powered by muscles, therefore... ;-)

Completely agree.

As far as I'm concerned, natural weapons are a subset of 'muscle-powered weapons', written as such on the weapon tables. If a player pays 45 points to be able to be a Weapon Master with all muscle-powered weapons, I don't see how I'd justify that I was excluding a certain subset.

What's the logical argument for excluding fists but including cesti?

[lexington]

Originally Posted by Tyneras

A better solution would have been to turn the fighting skills (Brawling, Wrestling, Boxing, Judo, etc.) into generic striking and grappling skills with no bonus damage for high skill, and give the bonus damage to Trained by a Master.

Under this system there would be rarely ever be reason to ever taken anything but Brawling when it comes to striking skills.

I do like the idea of divorcing the damage bonus from the skills. I'd add in that you can take a level of Striking ST for every ??? points in each skill so that a trained fighter can hit harder than an untrained one.

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Completely agree.

As far as I'm concerned, natural weapons are a subset of 'muscle-powered weapons', written as such on the weapon tables. If a player pays 45 points to be able to be a Weapon Master with all muscle-powered weapons, I don't see how I'd justify that I was excluding a certain subset.

What's the logical argument for excluding fists but including cesti?

There is none, really, other than the certainty of some that it wasn't the intent for unarmed attacks to be considered 'weapons' in the sense covered by Weapon Master, and that TbAM was intended to be the one advantage to give that stuff to unarmed combat. Since that 'some' seems to include the author of Martial Arts, it gives me some pause to disagree, but not too much.