Is a 5th Edition coming soon? [Answer: NO, it isn't!]

[robkelk]

Originally Posted by Rocket Man

Don't listen to him, he's just trying to strip Mayan. :D

I can dig it... 8)

[Whome?]

Both Gurps 3rd Edition Revised and 4th Edition are very good. I myself think Gurps 4th ed was a good move because it upped the production values to what other RPG games currently in print have. Also, the 16 4th Edition full color hardbound releases are enough to satisfy those who prefer them (like me). The e23 releases and the classic line reprints are excellent support. Pyramid in its new form is a Gurps supplement I look forward to every month.

Overall, Gurps has never been better to me. And I actually enjoy waiting for new releases now on e23 - it beats waiting for the supplements to appear on a store shelf. And other people feel the same way - e23 support for both third and fourth edition Gurps is very much appreciated by the Gurps fans out there.

The cost of doing a Gurps 5th edition would be huge - and with people very happy playing third edition or forth edition Gurps I don't see a need for this expense. At least for another 8 years or even more.

[memorax]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

It will only be complete when imagination is dead, and children's eyes no longer sparkle in wonder.

Here the thing though Gurps Vehicles is somewhat compicated and imagination or no a pin in the behind to use imo while any child that looks at it will have eyes that glaze or and no longer sparkle. So a 4E version of the book is needed. At the very least so the Gurps can lose the whole "it requires calculus and physics to make vehicles in Gurps" stigmata that I keep hearing every now and then. As for a 5E I'm not sure why they even pulbished a 4E of the game. The new rules while better could have fit all into a third Gurps Compendium. Restarting the entire line was imo not needed.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by memorax

As for a 5E I'm not sure why they even pulbished a 4E of the game. The new rules while better could have fit all into a third Gurps Compendium.

Your second sentence suggests an answer to the question implicit in the first: In the minds of the majority of GURPS players, Third Edition required large compendia. SJ Games in fact persisted in stressing that the two Compendium volumes it had published were optional, but gamers and freelancers alike persisted in citing them. It got to the point where using freelance-written GURPS content or gaming at the table of the typical GURPS GM essentially required the Basic Set, Third Edition Revised, Compendium I, and Compendium II. Between the "revised" aspect of the Basic Set and the two add-ons to it, this meant gaming with a core rules set seen through several filters, many of which altered fundamental function. We took that as a sign that we should rethink a few core rules and do our best to smooth over the wrinkles in the "core + revision + two add-ons" model. We left it for well over a decade because we didn't especially want to restart . . . it's a lot of work to do that.

Fourth Edition isn't perfect, either. However, the fact that all of its add-on rules content (as opposed to things like licensed settings) is available in easily updated, perpetually available, and electronically searchable PDF form helps a great deal. It means that we can update content retroactively in a form that lets customers easily look up references (especially true for customers who realize that PDF readers can search all the PDFs in a given directory/folder like one big book!). It also means that we don't have to throw as much money at reprints; if a customer can't afford a supplement this week or this month, it will still be available next month or next year, and might even be updated by then. All of this – the latter in particular, from a publisher's point of view – is a strong argument against Fifth Edition.

[mehrkat]

Based on Kromm's comments I'm curious whether you might potentially update core rules or advantages and then just correct the PDF.

For instance if you decided disad A should be -10% instead of -5% you could put it on the Erata page for the physical book owners and then then just update the PDF for everyone else.

With that kind of dynamic rule set it would seem that a 5th edition might practically never be needed and would allow the company to just go through every PDF with word search to pull every instance of that disad and change the cost. Then email out everyone who owns the product of the update.

I can see the writing on the wall my physical game book collection may yet turn into a tablet reader with the PDFS.

[johndallman]

The PDF format is page-orientation, which means that adding more detail to rules, or changing the wording very much, starts hitting problems of space on the page. Errata can be, and are, fixed in PDFs.

As an example, Tactical Shooting might make sense as further material in Martial Arts. But getting it in there without re-laying-out the book wouldn't be practical. People are also more willing to buy new supplements than to pay for revisions of something they already have - and this is a business, which needs to make income.

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by johndallman

As an example, Tactical Shooting might make sense as further material in Martial Arts. But getting it in there without re-laying-out the book wouldn't be practical.

The layout alone would make this cost-prohibitive, but this would also run into contract issues. You'd either need a complicated method of figuring the split or need to renegotiate or both. A big nightmare for all involved!

[memorax]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Your second sentence suggests an answer to the question implicit in the first: In the minds of the majority of GURPS players, Third Edition required large compendia. SJ Games in fact persisted in stressing that the two Compendium volumes it had published were optional, but gamers and freelancers alike persisted in citing them. It got to the point where using freelance-written GURPS content or gaming at the table of the typical GURPS GM essentially required the Basic Set, Third Edition Revised, Compendium I, and Compendium II. Between the "revised" aspect of the Basic Set and the two add-ons to it, this meant gaming with a core rules set seen through several filters, many of which altered fundamental function. We took that as a sign that we should rethink a few core rules and do our best to smooth over the wrinkles in the "core + revision + two add-ons" model. We left it for well over a decade because we didn't especially want to restart . . . it's a lot of work to do that.

Fourth Edition isn't perfect, either. However, the fact that all of its add-on rules content (as opposed to things like licensed settings) is available in easily updated, perpetually available, and electronically searchable PDF form helps a great deal. It means that we can update content retroactively in a form that lets customers easily look up references (especially true for customers who realize that PDF readers can search all the PDFs in a given directory/folder like one big book!). It also means that we don't have to throw as much money at reprints; if a customer can't afford a supplement this week or this month, it will still be available next month or next year, and might even be updated by then. All of this – the latter in particular, from a publisher's point of view – is a strong argument against Fifth Edition.

Thanks for the response. Clears up a few things.

[beetle496]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Fourth Edition isn't perfect, either. However, the fact that all of its add-on rules content (as opposed to things like licensed settings) is available in easily updated, perpetually available, and electronically searchable PDF form helps a great deal. It means that we can update content retroactively in a form that lets customers easily look up references (especially true for customers who realize that PDF readers can search all the PDFs in a given directory/folder like one big book!). It also means that we don't have to throw as much money at reprints; if a customer can't afford a supplement this week or this month, it will still be available next month or next year, and might even be updated by then. All of this – the latter in particular, from a publisher's point of view – is a strong argument against Fifth Edition.

Well, I finally bit the bullet and recently purchased the two starter hard covers. Even though I have not played in a decade, I was still buying source books regularly, but $65 was a lot for was for me recreational reading! (Especially when I had all the 3e material, 2x compedium et al.)

I have to say this though: PDF is a lousy choice for an electronic format! It is great for printing, but lousy for use on-screen (tablet or otherwise). Multiple columns on screen? Vertical and horizontal scrolling? Arbitrary (context insensitive) "page" breaks on something that only ever lives electronically? Static table of contents -- and where is the other hyperlinked text? (The PDF format supports structured text and hyperlinks of course, but SJG does not seem to bother with that.) It's not only that so much of your stuff is PDF only, but that you do only a mediocre job with the PDFs!

Also, SJG charges too much for PDFs. I have to pay for the ink and paper, and it is never as good as something professionally printed. I bet if you were to cut the PDF prices in half you would sell four times as many! What has SJG done to ensure that you have picked a close to optimal point on the price-demand curve? I have no complaints about what you charge for hard copy. Your PDF pricing seems to be picked only not to compete with the bound version. But then you don't keep things in print!

I am a long time loyal customer. I have purchased dozens, maybe even a hundred, SJG products (especially if I can count Microgames in that tally), who has cut way, way back on his SJG purchase in the last several years because I cannot find hard copy stuff like I used to be able to. Sure, my local game shop will special order for me, but I don't buy unless I can browse first!

Here's my two requests:

(1) Embrace truly digital native publishing: ePub or iBook. I would pay the prices you are asking on e23 prices for electronic formats that were actually robust.

and/or

(2) Hook up with a print-on-demand publisher: I would pay your e23 prices for hardcopy mailed to me. I will not pay what you are asking for PDFs.

[robkelk]

From previous comments on this forum, and the fact that there was a (small) price increase at e23 a couple of years ago, I suspect the price of the PDFs reflects the cost of creating and distributing * them compared to the number of sales they generate.

As for ePub or iBook, as far as I know neither of those works on my PalmPilot. PDF does.

You have a good point about lack of inline markup. Bookmarks aren't the same...


* Yes, there is a distribution cost. T3 connections to the Internet aren't cheap, nor is enterprise-level storage.