Redemption Stimulus

JCD · 07-20-2010, 09:22 PM

I'm a fan of Unknown Armies but have never played it.

They have something called Stimuli

Essentially they are three situations which viscerally affect the player. There is a Noble Stimulus, a Rage Stimulus and a Helplessness Stimulus. This has an effect on the mechanics.

I want to borrow that idea. I was thinking about my character (a demon) and thinking what could make him Redeem. I figured it out.

I think that maybe the characters should have an idea of actions or situations which would lead him Up or Down.

(No, Lady, I'm not telling)

Formerly in Flavor thread

Jennifer · 07-20-2010, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCD

I want to borrow that idea. I was thinking about my character (a demon) and thinking what could make him Redeem. I figured it out.

I think that maybe the characters should have an idea of actions or situations which would lead him Up or Down.

That sounds like a good thing to think about when designing a character, yeah. But I'm a bit confused by the second part. Are you suggesting that the character himself should know IC what could make him redeem? Or that the other characters in the group should know IC? (Which seems weird, unless they have relevant attunements.) Or that the other players should know OOC?

JCD · 07-21-2010, 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jennifer

That sounds like a good thing to think about when designing a character, yeah. But I'm a bit confused by the second part. Are you suggesting that the character himself should know IC what could make him redeem? Or that the other characters in the group should know IC? (Which seems weird, unless they have relevant attunements.) Or that the other players should know OOC?

I think it should be something that the player should know about his character. The character himself shouldn't know. Certainly not the other characters, though roleplaying might show something.

Since you brought it up, it might be something that shows up to a Destiny or Fate attunment, though I am very skittish about that. If Kronos knows that a demon responds well to puppies, I can't see him not forwarding that to Asmodeous as something to look out for, which defeats the whole purpose if Judgement/The Game can bag and tag the Celestial before he has a chance to even start down that path.

Rocket Man · 07-21-2010, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCD

Since you brought it up, it might be something that shows up to a Destiny or Fate attunment, though I am very skittish about that. If Kronos knows that a demon responds well to puppies, I can't see him not forwarding that to Asmodeous as something to look out for, which defeats the whole purpose if Judgement/The Game can bag and tag the Celestial before he has a chance to even start down that path.

Agreed. I still hold with the mainstream school that says the only visible Destiny on a celestial is to Redeem/Keep being an angel, while the only visible Fate is to Fall/Keep being a demon. Giving further details makes it way too easy to police the Good Guys/Bad Guys.

(Of course, with someone in a vessel, I usually phrase it more indirectly on Divine Destiny/Fated Future: "His Fate is to walk out on his friends, betraying everything he believes in in the process." "Her Destiny is to discover a family she didn't know she had and reunite with them.")

I do like discusing in advance what it would take to make a particular PC rise or Fall. That's a useful conversation and helps solidify the character concept. And should that dramatic point happen, it can make for a very powerful sequence of events without having to stop and say "Now what the Hell do I do?"

(For example, with my own PC -- a Mercurian of Destiny known as Kevin, who's also an experienced dream warrior -- I know the thing most likely to push him into dissonant behavior is a threat to his wife Dani, a Cherub of Protection. Should she be endangered by humans, it would be very tempting for him to come to the rescue ... and maybe rack up enough dissonance to Fall in the process. Embittered by the human brutality that has finally separated him from his love, he would lash back in the most effective way he knew how, becoming an Impudite of Nightmare. Meanwhile, his own Fall might be enough to trigger Dani's, now determined to isolate herself from those painful feelings that haunt her ....)

JCD · 07-21-2010, 11:32 AM

It would be wrong to force a PC to Redeem or Fall if he or she didn't want to. However, it adds a bit of anxiety and tension to the game and it strongly helps develop the character.

Rocket Man · 07-21-2010, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCD

It would be wrong to force a PC to Redeem or Fall if he or she didn't want to. However, it adds a bit of anxiety and tension to the game and it strongly helps develop the character.

Vehemently agreed to on both points.

tbug · 07-21-2010, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCD

It would be wrong to force a PC to Redeem or Fall if he or she didn't want to. However, it adds a bit of anxiety and tension to the game and it strongly helps develop the character.

So you don't let the dice fall where they may? Or you just make sure that if a PC is ever only one unfortunate roll away they have an opportunity to fix it?

Rocket Man · 07-21-2010, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tbug

So you don't let the dice fall where they may? Or you just make sure that if a PC is ever only one unfortunate roll away they have an opportunity to fix it?

Actually, I've found that in IN, it's rarely if ever a case of "let the dice fall where they may."

Angels don't Fall with just one dissonant action -- there has to be a pattern of dissonant behavior. Remember the old saying "What I tell you three times is true?" For trouble to hit, an angel has to go dissonant at least three times without trying to straighten themselves out, and even then they have the warning shot of being Outcast. Any angel that Falls from there has not done it by accident. (There is the theoretical possibility of a 666, but that's an extremely low probability ... and a warning that playing with fire burns.)

For demons, it's even more clear-cut. There is NO dice mechanic that will Redeem a demon. The demon has to decide on their own to go Renegade, seek out an Archangel and plead for mercy and forgiveness.

If a player doesn't want his character to Fall or Redeem, there are plenty of opportunities to keep them on their chosen path. (And plenty of chances to clear up dissonance, including Discord.) As a GM, I won't force them to accumulate dissonance and I won't push them into a Fall or a Redemotion ... but if that's where the player and the story go, that's where it goes.

tbug · 07-21-2010, 01:46 PM

That's very clear. Thank-you. I guess even in my game (with four Heartless angels) they still need to each fail three dissonance rolls before they'd Fall (barring Interventions). I like that you consider this to be their choice at that point, and I'll take that opinion as my own.

Thanks for the answer.

JCD · 07-21-2010, 02:20 PM

I was speaking less specifically of mechanics, but of driving the story.

Looking at Rocket's blurb of what would make his character Fall: if I, as the GM kept going after Dani to force him to react, when he is happy with his angelic character as it currently stands, then I am doing him a disservice.

I am establishing an environment where his character HAS to accumulate Dissonance.

07-20-2010, 09:22 PM	#1
JCD Join Date: May 2008 Location: Birthplace of the Worst Pizza on the Planet	Redemption Stimulus I'm a fan of Unknown Armies but have never played it. They have something called Stimuli Essentially they are three situations which viscerally affect the player. There is a Noble Stimulus, a Rage Stimulus and a Helplessness Stimulus. This has an effect on the mechanics. I want to borrow that idea. I was thinking about my character (a demon) and thinking what could make him Redeem. I figured it out. I think that maybe the characters should have an idea of actions or situations which would lead him Up or Down. (No, Lady, I'm not telling) Formerly in Flavor thread Last edited by JCD; 07-20-2010 at 09:26 PM.

07-21-2010, 11:32 AM	#5
JCD Join Date: May 2008 Location: Birthplace of the Worst Pizza on the Planet	Re: Redemption Stimulus It would be wrong to force a PC to Redeem or Fall if he or she didn't want to. However, it adds a bit of anxiety and tension to the game and it strongly helps develop the character.

07-21-2010, 01:46 PM	#9
tbug Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Victoria, BC Canada	Re: Redemption Stimulus That's very clear. Thank-you. I guess even in my game (with four Heartless angels) they still need to each fail three dissonance rolls before they'd Fall (barring Interventions). I like that you consider this to be their choice at that point, and I'll take that opinion as my own. Thanks for the answer.

07-21-2010, 02:20 PM	#10
JCD Join Date: May 2008 Location: Birthplace of the Worst Pizza on the Planet	Re: Redemption Stimulus I was speaking less specifically of mechanics, but of driving the story. Looking at Rocket's blurb of what would make his character Fall: if I, as the GM kept going after Dani to force him to react, when he is happy with his angelic character as it currently stands, then I am doing him a disservice. I am establishing an environment where his character HAS to accumulate Dissonance.